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Joshua77 October 30th, 2014 2:58pm

A living wage as a minimum wage is a ridiculous concept. Advocating that a person has the right to sell his labor above market value, but buy goods and services produced by others at market value, is hypocritical at best, and pure theft at worst.

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2albion2 California
11/01/14 4:24 pm

The market value for wages is simply the minimum amount that employers are forced by circumstances to pay. It's not what the labor is worth, as any economist knows. When a lot of people are out of work employers can pay nearly nothing.

Joshua77 Jesus is Lord
11/01/14 9:45 pm

Supply and demand determines what something is worth, at least in terms of what someone is willing to pay for it, including labor.

2albion2 California
11/01/14 9:49 pm

So if unemployment is high and employers can pay so little that a worker can't even afford good and shelter--as happened often in the past 150 years--which makes owners tremendously wealthy, then starvation wages are what the worker is worth?

Joshua77 Jesus is Lord
11/01/14 10:00 pm

The law of supply and demand still apply, with or without a government mandated minimum wage. The minimum wage simply decreases the quantity demanded for labor, increasing unemployment and also making capital goods that can replace labor more

2albion2 California
11/02/14 10:10 am

Could you please clarify that?

Arananthi Literal Ninja
10/30/14 11:15 pm

The flaw here is thinking that "market value" is somehow a real thing. It's not. It's an abstract concept, and the market can and will adapt to whatever externalities affect it. McWorkers in Australia make $15/hour, plus *real* health care, with time

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Arananthi Literal Ninja
10/30/14 11:17 pm

off that Americans don't get, and their Big Mac costs $4.47 USD compared to our average of $4.62. There's no magical reason why "market value" in Australia is so radically different than it is here except that WE systematically and deliberately

Arananthi Literal Ninja
10/30/14 11:20 pm

degrade and denegrate unskilled labor as being LITERALLY "not worth living" -- by not paying unskilled laborers a living wage. Washington State has had one of the highest minimum wages in the country for years, and look at our economy.

Arananthi Literal Ninja
10/30/14 11:20 pm

Job growth has continued at an average 0.8 percent annual pace, 0.3 percentage points above the national rate. Payrolls at Washington's restaurants and bars, portrayed as particularly vulnerable to higher wage costs, expanded by 21 percent.

Arananthi Literal Ninja
10/30/14 11:21 pm

Your argument is entirely fictional, based on the classic failure of Austrian economics: making shit up based on how you feel it should be rather than looking at actual evidence.

Joshua77 Jesus is Lord
10/31/14 4:08 am

Fascinating! I wondered how one could argue the "against" side of this poll, but I never considered that someone would argue that there is no such thing as market value. Telling an economist there is no such thing as market value, is like telling a

Joshua77 Jesus is Lord
10/31/14 4:09 am

physicist that there is no such thing as gravity.

Fascinating argument!

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
10/31/14 5:52 am

You might also want to read the other words used in his argument.

Joshua77 Jesus is Lord
10/31/14 7:17 am

I read her argument; it's very Marx inspired. If the truth doesn't support your argument, then label truth as fiction and label fiction as truth.

2albion2 California
11/01/14 4:28 pm

See my post above and notice the word "externalities" in A's statement. High unemployment makes it possible for extremely profitable employers to pay far less. It has nothing to do with what the work is worth, just what the employer can get away with

chinito Florida
10/30/14 1:16 pm

I disagreed because a person has the right to sale his labor at whatever value he wants.

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Joshua77 Jesus is Lord
10/30/14 5:05 pm

That's not really the question; the question is does a person have the right to use government to force an employer to pay him above market wages, while expecting others to sell their labor and goods at market value with no government help.

chinito Florida
10/30/14 6:23 pm

Okay I'll change my answer

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
10/31/14 5:56 am

The "market value" is depressed relative to all other economic benchmarks. The capitalist system in this country is broken. So, Yeah I would say it's reasonable.

chinito Florida
10/31/14 6:02 am

It is not broken. There is enough money out there for anyone that wants to earn it. You can't expect to make a comfortable living by flipping burgers for 40 years.

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
10/31/14 7:00 am

You have no clue what constitutes a minimum wage job these days. Trust me, they are not all at fast food joints.

Joshua77 Jesus is Lord
10/31/14 7:25 am

Freedom of enterprise is broken? How so?

chinito Florida
10/31/14 10:58 am

Minimum wage should be something temporary. If you can't get any other job get one that pays minimum wage. Two if necessary. Those jobs, and not entitlements should be the safety net.

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
10/31/14 11:38 am

Minimum wage jobs *should* be entry-level, low skill low responsibility, part-time positions. But they are not. They are also the most plentiful level
If employment available. There is no balance between work, pay, expenses. The lowest tier of pay

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
10/31/14 11:40 am

Has not been lifted up with the rest and is now lower and wider relative to the "middle" than ever before.

drunk ill be Bach
10/30/14 11:32 am

This would make sense, except the major flaw in thinking that minimum wage is somehow "market value". Lol

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drunk ill be Bach
10/30/14 11:32 am

The *current minimum wage

Joshua77 Jesus is Lord
10/30/14 1:35 pm

Do you think the current minimum wage is above or below market value?

Joshua77 Jesus is Lord
10/31/14 3:58 pm

Good point. The answer would depend upon the job type.

Liberty 4,032,064
10/30/14 11:06 am

Pssh! Get that logic outta here!

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zack1018 Ich will nach Stuttgart
10/30/14 9:41 am

Very interesting way of putting it, great food for thought!

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Nemacyst No Lives Matter
10/30/14 8:41 am

This user is currently being ignored

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FacePalm That Trick Never Works
10/31/14 5:58 am

That's not strictly correct, your assumption about having skills beyond burger flipping netting higher than minimum.

Nemacyst No Lives Matter
10/31/14 6:10 am

This user is currently being ignored

FacePalm That Trick Never Works
10/31/14 6:56 am

No I mean like being a dental hygienist. Or working is a pharmacy. Being an office assistant (and I don't mean just filing papers).

DGroot America
10/30/14 8:17 am

Well put. You used a way of explaining this that I haven't really heard before.

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jvc1133 61535
10/30/14 8:10 am

It's not the duty of government in a free society to establish wages. (Communism)

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