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Arananthi October 23rd, 2014 11:56pm

"Natural Law" is one of the most mis-named concepts in modern thought. The "laws" it espouses are neither natural (because they were invented by man), nor laws (in neither the legal nor the scientific sense.) They exist only to falsely elevate ideas.

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MaxineL New Jersey
10/23/14 8:31 pm

I think you are confusing terminology with man trying to explain phenomena of nature.calling them laws doesn't mean that they are written in stone. We are just trying to understand our universe.

Arananthi Literal Ninja
10/23/14 7:03 pm

So? What's your argument to the contrary?

thebarr
10/24/14 3:10 am

Posted it to you countless times.

Arananthi Literal Ninja
10/24/14 1:09 pm

Me? I don't even know who the hell you are.

Zod Above Pugetropolis
10/23/14 6:01 pm

Totally agree. The only "natural" law is that IF you can run fast enough or hide well enough, and ONLY for as long as you're able, you MIGHT not be another predator's dinner. No one is naturally guaranteed or "entitled" to anything.

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Praetorianus Fair enough.
10/23/14 6:01 pm

Have to disagree. Law has multiple meanings, one of them, according to MW is: "a statement of an order or relation of phenomena that so far as is known is invariable under the given conditions." Example: law of gravity. Discovered, not invented.

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Zod Above Pugetropolis
10/23/14 6:04 pm

That is a "law" written by man to describe what little we know of a "natural" phenomenon. Gravity exists in nature, but the "law" of gravity does not.

Arananthi Literal Ninja
10/23/14 6:23 pm

So you'd describe the right to own property as "invariable"? I think there's a shitload of people in the world who are living proof that that's not true.

Zod Above Pugetropolis
10/23/14 6:36 pm

praet, that seems like a better definition of "scientific law" than of "natural law".

Arananthi Literal Ninja
10/23/14 5:10 pm

John Locke, the father of 'Natural law' was a slave trader and claimed slavery as part of the set of 'natural laws.' The fact that modern proponents agree that natural law includes liberty for all means 'natural law' isn't some self-existent thing.

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Arananthi Literal Ninja
10/23/14 5:12 pm

The only truly "natural" law is that entity most willing and able to kill the shit out of you makes the laws. All modern governments derive their power from the just consent of the soldiers that are willing to kill to protect them.

Praetorianus Fair enough.
10/23/14 6:03 pm

Good example for abuse of the term "natural law", another one is defining same-sex relationships as a "crime against nature". However, that doesn't invalidate the expression as I defined it above.

thebarr
10/23/14 7:04 pm

Great summary of the philosophy of the Nazis, Aran. But since natural law is an illusion, we're really no better than they are. We just have bigger guns. Right?

Arananthi Literal Ninja
10/23/14 7:48 pm

That's correct. Majority rules. When you do something so nasty that the entire rest of the world decides to beat the shit out of you, whatever you just did gets called "evil" for as long as people remember that it happened. That's how morality works.

Arananthi Literal Ninja
10/23/14 7:50 pm

if for whatever reason enough other countries had joined the Axis side and fascism/Nazism had actually won WWII, we would all be debating the evils of communism from an entirely different perspective and calling ourselves 'Good.'

thebarr
10/23/14 7:55 pm

That's dangerous and ridiculous. That's not how morality or any objective truth works. I can write "1+1=5" until I'm blue in the face. Even if I convince the rest of the world, it's not true.

Arananthi Literal Ninja
10/23/14 9:57 pm

There is no such thing as objective truth. There are only people convinced that objective truth exists, but the simple fact that there are other people who are not so convinced objectively proves the subjectivity of truth.

thebarr
10/24/14 2:50 am

"There is no such thing as objective truth."

Except, I suppose, for that statement. An argument against truth is self defeating for that purpose.

Arananthi Literal Ninja
10/24/14 1:10 pm

Fine, I'll rephrase: If you can find proof of objective truth for me, I'll bow to it. I have 7 billion+ pieces of evidence for subjective truth. Bring it.

thebarr
10/24/14 2:30 pm

That's called Logical Positivism, aka verificationism. It is also self defeating. The premise, "Only what can be definitively proven is objectively true" fails by its own standards, since that statement cannot be proven. Thus a contradiction ensues.

thebarr
10/24/14 2:30 pm

Some truth in the world is axiomatic. That's inevitable in any system of truth. Look up Godel's theorem. That's just the nature of reality: Not all truths can be proven. It doesn't make them less true.