Did Jesus require anything of people who wanted to follow him, or did He unconditionally invite them to follow Him?
Didn't he say something like " you bring the water I'll make the wine"... It was the Jesus version of BYOB
That's what it said on my invitation to heaven at the bottum
Anyone can except Christ as their Savior.
Sorry read the question wrong. God says no works can get you to heaven, it's completely by faith.
This question isn't about faith vs works.
Well the question is "did Jesus require anything". If you are requiring someone to do something, that means they have to work to accomplish the task. Christ simply said that if they believed He was the Son of God, than they'd be saved. It's faith.
I'm not a protestant, and I disagree with your "faith alone" doctrine. But that's not what this question is about.
I'm not talking about salvation, either.
I'm simply talking about conditions placed on whether Christ allowed someone to follow Him.
Well Christ allowed anyone to follow him. Sorry I guess my brain is too fried tonight to say exactly what I mean or completely understand the exact meaning of the question.
Christ, during His ministry, told some followers that they had to satisfy conditions before following Him.
They had to commit to their faith both by following Christ's commands and turning from sin.
For example, Luke 14:33 - In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.
Mt 16:24 - Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.
Ok I get what you are saying, and yes, here Jesus is saying they had to turn from their sin to follow Him.
And then there's the story of the rich man who asked to follow Him and be saved. First Jesus advises the man to obey the commandments, and then told him to sell his possessions and give the money to the poor.
Both of those conditions are "works"
The same thing applies today in the fact that you must repent of your sin to be saved.
In that story of the rich man, I understand those commands to be so the man could literally follow Christ. I don't believe Christ is saying he had to do those works to be saved.
Polls about religion always seem to bring out the ugliest conversations.
Anything about religion brings out the ugliest in me.
Didn't require them, so long as they believed he was the son of God and changed their ways. So yes and no im a sense, but mostly no
Be total dicks in Christ's name, apparently.
Yeah a handful of Christians are dicks just like a handful of Muslims are terrorist. All Christians must be dick and all Muslims must be terrorist kinda like the dicks are real Christians like ISIS are real Muslims
About 90% of the literally thousands of Christians I've known. I don't know what percentage that is of all Christians. Maybe I just have really really bad luck.
It's not accurate, it has to be your area. I'm assuming it may be because if your sexual preferences and we invite gays to our church and we have a gay in our clergy actually. Maybe my church is more accepting than most Christians. I don't know
Either Christians are all dicks, or it's something with how you are perceiving and interacting with them.
I guess I'll believe that 90% of the 2.18 billion Christians in the world are dicks.
It's definitely not you. It's them. Really.
No no don't be mean to him, that's proving his point. You're correct though, just don't become a statistic haha
It has nothing to do with being gay. The Christians I grew up around had no idea I was gay. They were just dicks in general about everything and anything not exactly like them. But yes I'm sure it's a statistical anomaly.
Maybe you are just surrounded by dicks in general. Have you noticed non-Christians to be any better?
Of course I have. My non-religious friends aren't racist, sexist, classist, heterosexist... My Christian family and acquaintances are all of the above.
Listen, as I said elsewhere, if I loved this Jesus guy I'd be here apologizing to anyone who experiences Christ-followers as dicks. Instead you're here defending it and belittling my experience. How loving of you.
Yes, when you insult an entire class of people I don't take that lightly. Probably the same way that you would take it if I wrote "90% of gays/Dems/women (etc) are dicks." (Of course I don't think this.)
So step outside of your narrow world and see your statement for what it was: Exactly the kind of bigotry that you claim to disparage.
Wrong. 90% of democrats probably are dicks.
There's a difference between being gay and a women, which you don't choose--and being a Christian, which you do choose.
I would never disparage gays or women as a group.
I would and have easily disparaged religious people and political parties as a group because they chose to belong and are accountable for that and their actions.
Kermie look, the people who follow the religion the way Jesus would want them to wouldn't give you that impression. You are seeing the fault in the people themselves that has nothing to do with their religion that they have chosen.
Besides, the modern interpretation of Christianity attracts dickish people. It's not like Christians are a random selection of all people. They're a self-selected group, which attracts people who are already fearful, petty, and narrow-minded.
Hate the sin, not the sinner. I personally think gays go to heaven and it's taught it my church. Being gay is a sin just like every other sin in the book. If every other sin sent you to hell, no one would go. Being gay is just a sin like any other
Look, I know some really decent Christian people. Some of the nicest people I know are Christians. I'm just saying the vast majority I know aren't nice at all. And they do it in the name of Christ. So you can't totally absolve their religion.
Kermie your past statement is false. Stop the mud slinging..both of you. We are adults alright?
Ok ok not that last comment, the 2nd to last one that was the last one when I typed it
There is a church of about 250 Christians in PA all of which accept gays for who they are and even elect them into positions within the church. We have roughly 15 openly gay men and women in our church, all of which are treated no differently
Sorry, man. It's nothing to do with you personally. You seem like a decent person.
But I'm tired of religion getting a free pass for centuries and particularly Christianity in this culture. We're supposed to pretend it's not horrific
so we won't hurt people's feelings.
Well people shouldn't willingly choose such dickish religions.
I'm not going to "be nice" and ignore it like the rest of the world.
It's not horrific, I would love to have you attend our church one time.. Just one time.. Being gay would be looked upon no differently than you telling them you smoked. Who cars, it doesn't change your character does it? Plus we are taught not to
One of the most damaging things our Founding Fathers did was equate religion (a chosen aspect) with things like sex and race (which aren't.) People get a free pass to be horrible because "freedom of religion." I'm sick of it.
Judge because only god can do that. It's not our place. Our job is to accept them for the person they are and praise god within our walls with them like they are any other sinner because that's what we are. A roomful of sinners
That sounds amazing, Nathan. I'm all for that. If people actually practice that (and are the same way about transgender, race, immigrants, etc.) and actually live what they preach, that's awesome! Like I said I know a handful of ppl who are similar.
But look around. Most of the Christians here are not like that. Most of the Christians in the world are not like that. Maybe someday they will be. Right now they aren't. And you as much as anyone should be calling the heretics out.
Instead you want to give your wayward brethren a free pass and pretend Christians don't do horrible things in the name of Christ to all kinds of people around the world. Speak up! Call them out. Show your faith if it's actually what you say it is.
It's practiced by all of us in a genuine form at my church. One guy was actually rude to a very feminine gay teen about a month ago because of him being different and gay and he was very promptly informed for about an hour and a half about why he
Was wrong and why his action of judging the young man was far worse than his sin of being gay and since it occurred about halfway through the service his scolding of the man lasted half an hour past the time church let's out and no one left
He preacher left to a standing ovation but the man who made the comments refused to apologize and was asked to not come back until he was ready to because that behavior will not be accepted in our walls
Kermie I don't know why anyone takes the time to reply to you. You consistently take every opportunity to enter polls about religion and say the same stuff over and over. You have a chip on your shoulder about people of faith, discussion is futile.
Easy now, he's coming along. No need to re-attack. He obviously has a reason to act the way he does, theirs no reason to attack. That will solve nothing
Every man is worth the time to transform his view of my religion because I'm taught my faith should reflect Jesus and when they talk to me and see me they should feel as if they were talking to and seeing Jesus and it should be obvious to see
Sounds cool. Wish I could have been there to see it. Well sort of. That sounds like a long time to sit in church haha.
Oh it was a long time and usually people complain when the sermon goes 5 mins over but no one left or said a word that time. They could sense that what he was saying was very important and it was actually pretty fun to experience
What I said is not an attack.
Well said, 2katz.
Thanks for reminding me why I should use the poll targeting feature more often, Kermie.
Clearly people like you can't handle polite conversations about faith.
Well I can only hope that the people from your church take over on SOH.
Come on guys he's being respectful to me now, just treat him alright and I'm sure he will. He does get defensive though, but I treated him ok and he's being completely ok with me
MrM- I shared this poll for you btw
Nathan, he's not ok with you. Not really.
I've had these conversations with him before- polite, respectful, etc., and he always snaps back to his prejudices.
My efforts didn't make it into his long term memory. Neither will yours.
But good luck.
Lol look who showed up to pat himself on the back where everyone can see and then trash me even though he's not talking to me. What a surprise!
Nathan, maybe the two of you could continue your conversation in Messages, rather than supporting his practice if hijacking polls like this. But I doubt he would want a private discussion.
I'm not patting myself on the back, Kermie.
And I'm not leaving this poll open for people to come in and bash you.
The poll is closed.
What good Christians you guys are :)
At least as an atheist I don't have anything to live up to so I can't repeatedly and visibly fail at it.
Even Christians are not required to put up with abuse.
Can we please all act like adults and not kindergartners? Come on guys
I guess I'm the only one that chuckled at the "Kermie surrounded by dįcks" imagery? Sure sounds like that'd be heaven to him. Sorry for interrupting.
How am I being a dick?
I'm more of an ass man.
Luckily there are plenty of asses around here too ha!
lfb2 said "Maybe you're just surrounded by dįcks in general"
I wasn't calling anyone a dįck.
My bad I thought since their was 3 Christians talking to kermie and Christians were called 90% dicks earlier in the thread that that's where you were coming from. I stopped reading the other comments when they got out of hand
Leave everything behind and follow me
I would much rather follow God!
I will follow Jesus which is following God. :)
I said conditional, but mainly because of the young ruler (already mentioned in comments) and also he said "Take up your cross and follow me. That's for everyone...
...Also I could see unconditional because of His unconditional love, and because some of the people that followed him were... shady: Matthew the tax collector, Paul who was Saul. But he requires us to meet Him halfway, there is no lukewarm.
Remember the "Rich Young Ruler" ? Jesus told him to sell all he had, give the money to the poor , and follow Him
Until I see where he asked for something, I'm sure it's unconditional,
Telling people to leave everything behind, to give up sinful lifestyles, to sell all they own and give their money to the poor, to drop what they were doing...
It's pretty much His m.o.
Give all your wealth away?
I think he asked some to drop their nets...
Unconditional. Is this a trick question?
No. No trick.
And His invitation wasn't unconditional.
A lot of people believed it was, which is a modern revision.
A lot of people *believe* it was
Oh, could you explain that? I'd like to know about this.
Oh, just the part where you had to leave mother and father behind, all of your riches, basically everything gets left behind. Then you put Jesus first.
Ok, that part is conditional, but everyone is free to do that if they want to. It's open to everyone. Isn't that part sort of unconditional?