Show of HandsShow of Hands

veritas1 June 6th, 2014 7:56pm

Open Carry Laws let folks carry weapons that cause reasonable people to feel their safety threatened. Stand Your Ground laws allow people to respond to such threats with deadly force. Is this freedom or perpetual violence in the name of self defense?

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d0m333 Pennsylvania
06/07/14 10:12 pm

Not really what stand your ground is supposed to do...I need more than my feeling upset or insecure. I need to be advanced upon, otherwise I'm not really "standing my ground" against anything but feeling.

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ladyniner81 no hope for humanity
06/07/14 8:40 pm

I wish this whole George Zimmerman thing would go away and no one mention him ever ever again..good god. the media just harped on and on about him until I actually screamed at my TV " will you shut the eff up about him please?????????"

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
06/07/14 9:07 am

Open carry laws still require you to carry in a safe manner. You can't run around with the gun in your hand, pointing it at people.
And stand-your-ground laws require a credible threat. A holstered pistol or a slung rifle is not a credible threat.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
06/07/14 9:07 am

Your argument falls flat in that, if the open carrier is doing so in accordance with safe firearms handling practices (muzzle pointed in a safe direction, finger off the trigger),...

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
06/07/14 9:08 am

...then no rational person (and certainly no fellow firearms carrier) will feel threatened, ergo, stand your ground laws would not even enter into the equation.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
06/07/14 9:08 am

If a person is running around pointing a firearm at folks, then they've already broken every open carry law that I'm aware of, and thereby fall outside the parameters of this question.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
06/07/14 9:08 am

Your question present a situation which cannot happen if both parties respectively are following the open carry laws, and stand your ground laws.

kermie gaytopia
06/06/14 10:17 pm

Hahaha love this.

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musiman28 Cotton country
06/06/14 7:05 pm

Legally open carrying a firearm wouldn't make reasonable people feel unsafe. Only liberal girlie-men.

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MaxineL New Jersey
06/06/14 7:45 pm

And I would know that the person openly carrying a weapon is not a nut who has come to kill everyone! Guns are made to kill. They have no place in everyday life.

kermie gaytopia
06/06/14 10:18 pm

But a child with a bag of skittles--now that makes manly men quiver.

rebelfury76 No Justice, No Peace
06/07/14 5:59 am

I think it was the getting his head bashed into a curb that did it. But you liberals like to ignore the facts that don't support your insane big govt political bias.

musiman28 Cotton country
06/07/14 9:48 am

Maxine, someone open carrying isn't going to harm someone. The bad guy is gonna hide his gun until he's ready to use it for the element of surprise. The open carry of firearms by responsible gun owners would deter crime, criminals want easy money,

musiman28 Cotton country
06/07/14 9:48 am

Not a gunfight and a chance of dying.

joyfully
06/06/14 6:54 pm

Well if everyone had a gun then everyone will be on equal playing field.
Sad but it might just have to come down to everyone have a gun so everyone can protect their selfs.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
06/07/14 9:11 am

Why is that sad? That's exactly what our Founding Fathers intended. They expected everyone to be armed and trained in the use of arms.

CalTexHawk spiral arm
06/06/14 5:53 pm

Logic will get you nowhere.

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pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
06/07/14 9:11 am

Sure it will. But it has to be presented first. This question is illogical as my post at the top explains.

rebelfury76 No Justice, No Peace
06/06/14 4:48 pm

so much misinformation...so little time.

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Rosebud Ohio
06/06/14 10:27 pm

So little interest too, as any attempt at debate will go unheeded (can I say I'm tired of a handful of users continually showing up in my feed, despite the fact I'm not following them for a reason?)

thebarr
06/06/14 4:31 pm

Stand Your Ground just let's you defend yourself if your life is threatened. You don't have to run away, you can "stand your ground". It doesn't let you shoot someone who you think looks scary.

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firefly5 the verse
06/06/14 9:45 pm

Maybe not in NC.

kermie gaytopia
06/06/14 10:21 pm

In Florida it apparently does.

Well, unless you're a minority woman threatened by her abusive ex.

thebarr
06/07/14 4:23 am

Yes, if you're a minority on top of someone, beating the tar out of him while he screams for help, tell him he's going to die, then go for his gun, he's allowed to shoot you. Must be profiling.

Haven't heard about the other case.

knetzere Illinois
06/06/14 2:38 pm

Are you saying that someone who is carrying a firearm is going to be frightened/threatened by someone else just open carrying a firearm prompting the frightened/threatened person to shoot the open carrier?

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veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 2:40 pm

I'm saying they have the legal right to and the conflict exists, yes.

knetzere Illinois
06/06/14 2:44 pm

Have you ever seen someone open carrying? They aren't sneaking around with their weapons drawn pointing at everyone. There is no threat in someone with a holstered weapon. If you feel that way you are probably over sensitive

veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 2:48 pm

I'm talking more about larger, unholstered rifles, which are legal open carries in some states.

knetzere Illinois
06/06/14 3:21 pm

Still the same for your paradox I'm not seeing a carrier feeling threatened by a group of guys with a rifle slung over their shoulder.

MJSeals J.D.
06/06/14 2:37 pm

I recommend you actually learn the laws, not just use you local medias opinion on them lol.

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veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 2:41 pm

I don't watch "local media" whatever that is.

MJSeals J.D.
06/06/14 2:45 pm

It's whatever media you watch.

firefly5 the verse
06/06/14 9:46 pm

dude, it's Jon Stewart. but he's right.

crewsmissle Florida
06/06/14 1:50 pm

Are reasonable people all of a sudden afraid of police and military? Last I checked they open carry.

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veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 2:13 pm

You are equating citizens with police. Apples and oranges.

DrReid Ever present.
06/06/14 2:34 pm

At least I know that the police and military have been subject to mental health checks.

crewsmissle Florida
06/06/14 4:44 pm

They have? So why do some cops and military personnel go rogue? Oh yeah mental health checks don't mean a thing.

crewsmissle Florida
06/06/14 4:45 pm

Wait weren't they citizens before they enlisted? And wait when not in uniform they are still citizens?

arctostaphylos Ankh Morpork, New York
06/06/14 4:54 pm

Absolutely. If the cops show up somewhere, you should get the frack out of there. They're one of the most violent, lawless gangs in any town.

crewsmissle Florida
06/06/14 6:24 pm

Admittedly and sadly I agree

Liberty 4,032,064
06/06/14 1:50 pm

Merely carrying a firearm does not cause a reasonable person to feel anything.

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Liberty 4,032,064
06/06/14 1:52 pm

Also, "stand your ground" laws only enable someone to defend themselves against an active aggressor.

So, the attempted point to be made here fails on both accounts.

veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 2:11 pm

Point 1, see my new poll. If even single person feels that way, a potential for conflict exists.
Point 2, with open carry laws, if a threat is only justified as a threat after you have been shot at, it's too late. Because open carry laws make it so

veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 2:11 pm

the intentions of the carrier are unclear. Are we just to assume that everyone is a good guy? That is a dangerous assumption.

veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 2:14 pm

75% feel threatened so far.

Liberty 4,032,064
06/06/14 2:17 pm

1) Your poll specifies a reasonable person.
2) I'm not sure what you mean by "open carry laws," but a person merely carrying a firearm is not an active threat. They would have to take some sort of action to present themselves as a threat.

Liberty 4,032,064
06/06/14 2:18 pm

75% of who feels threatened by what?

veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 2:22 pm

When 75% of people have a certain reaction to some thing, it is a very "reasonable" "good faith" reaction.

Liberty 4,032,064
06/06/14 2:24 pm

Please explain your 75% number.

veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 2:27 pm

And no. Florida cases have shown that even victims who were trying to get away and posed little threat, the shooter was protected under stand your ground.

Liberty 4,032,064
06/06/14 2:29 pm

If you're referring to George Zimmerman, he didn't use his firearm until he was on the ground getting his head pounded into the concrete. That's hardly comparable to just seeing a random person on the street.

veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 2:34 pm

No I'm not referring to that case.

Liberty 4,032,064
06/06/14 2:40 pm

Ok, well if someone is no longer attacking and is visibly ceasing and fleeing empty-handed, they're no longer a threat and shouldn't be fired upon. I 100% agree with you there.

veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 2:42 pm

There have been countless cases of that happening and being protected under SYG laws.

Liberty 4,032,064
06/06/14 2:44 pm

Then I'd say there's a problem with that specific law.

Liberty 4,032,064
06/06/14 2:44 pm

It basically just revenge at that point.

rebelfury76 No Justice, No Peace
06/06/14 4:48 pm

veritas, your understanding of stand your ground laws are incorrect. you don't have to wait to be shot at.

veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 4:55 pm

I agree. Which just further illustrates the conflict.

TiltonAllStarz Outside Ur Comfort Zone
06/06/14 1:28 pm

Two sides to every coin. The individual carrying the weapon might feel threatened by others. Is their fear not as important?

"Stand your ground" laws do nothing except allow a person to be the first responder for their own safety.

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TiltonAllStarz Outside Ur Comfort Zone
06/06/14 1:29 pm

Some individuals will make poor decisions. You can't legislate around that.

TiltonAllStarz Outside Ur Comfort Zone
06/06/14 1:30 pm

I don't know why I didn't have you followed. I swear I did. It's been rectified.

veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 1:37 pm

I don't think there is any significant (if any at all) fear mitigation between closed and open carry.

Many people undoubtably feel threatened by large, open carried weapons. With Open Carry Laws, it is impossible to ascertain whether they want to

veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 1:39 pm

shoot you until after they have started shooting at you.

TiltonAllStarz Outside Ur Comfort Zone
06/06/14 1:42 pm

That fear of the weapon is no more irrational that the weapon holder fearing others to do he/she harm.

That's a biased eye. Is it possible for you to feel safer that an armed citizen is close to you to defend you from another?

TiltonAllStarz Outside Ur Comfort Zone
06/06/14 1:45 pm

I think fear itself is somewhat irrational. I think of it as that individual is prepared. Ready. Possibly fearing to ever be in a situation where they will have to use it.

Btw, I guess you'd experience fear around me.
I carry.

veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 2:04 pm

Closed carry achieves the same thing without being brazen about it. In fact, there is very little logical about advertising a weapon like that. The NRA even admitted so much before they got flack from the open carry people. Closed carry also doesn't

veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 2:05 pm

threaten bystanders.

Many are saying fear of guns is irrational. I guess I don't understand why. People with guns use those guns to murder people every day. Given the open carry nature of the weapon, it's a perfectly logical fear.

TiltonAllStarz Outside Ur Comfort Zone
06/06/14 2:09 pm

Hold on.

Those same gun people save lives everyday.

veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 2:36 pm

I'm 100% pro concealed carry handguns, by the way. Those save lives an prevent crime, on balance.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
06/07/14 9:18 am

Criminals don't know if someone is carrying concealed. Why not open carry and dispel any doubt the criminal may have that they should find an easier target?

rebelfury76 No Justice, No Peace
06/06/14 1:26 pm

being afraid of the existence and presence of guns is not reasonable. Americans are panicky willdebeast.

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Vincere Seattle
06/06/14 1:22 pm

I don't mind open carry laws; Washington is actually an open carry state. As long as the weapon is plainly visible and secured I just don't see the issue.

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rebelfury76 No Justice, No Peace
06/06/14 1:26 pm

concealed is so much better. Our do you think criminals open carry

Vincere Seattle
06/06/14 1:36 pm

I'm cool with concealed carry too as long as they have a permit.

rebelfury76 No Justice, No Peace
06/06/14 3:52 pm

How is permitting compatible with the second amendment? Do you think criminals get permits?

Vincere Seattle
06/06/14 4:00 pm

No, rebel, criminals do not get permits.

Listen, man, I'm really not feeling patient enough to put up with your usual antics right now. So let's just cut the unnecessary/overused soundbite arguments. We really aren't too far apart on this issue

Vincere Seattle
06/06/14 4:01 pm

anyway. Your time would probably be better spent going after the partisan types on the opposite side of the issue.

rebelfury76 No Justice, No Peace
06/06/14 4:47 pm

They're over used because they're right. permits are unconstitutional. that's pretty clear. criminals don't submit to background checks or permits. they do NOTHING to curb crime.

Vincere Seattle
06/06/14 5:03 pm

I'm not exactly proposing strict gun control here. Just the very basics: background checks and permits for concealed carry. It's no barrier for the "good guys" and makes it marginally harder for people with a criminal record to get a weapon.

rebelfury76 No Justice, No Peace
06/06/14 8:56 pm

It is a barrier, and criminals don't do them so you're not stopping anything. also, again, how are those things NOT an infringement on the second amendment? if the govt gets to pick and choose who gets their rights then are they rights?

Vincere Seattle
06/06/14 9:03 pm

That first part is a logical fallacy that I'm tired of correcting. Murder is also illegal, but it happens anyway. The point is to put up a few barriers that will make it harder, this reducing the incidence; it's impossible to control completely.

Vincere Seattle
06/06/14 9:05 pm

As for the second part, former/current convicts and mentally ill people have many other rights taken away in the name of public safety.

rebelfury76 No Justice, No Peace
06/06/14 9:10 pm

You can't justify one wrong with another. I don't think any citizen should have their rights taken away. That's how we slip down this slope that you're on. "well we already do to these guys why not more?" that's how it goes.

Vincere Seattle
06/06/14 9:15 pm

Then I hereby decree that anyone who commits murder, rape, or any other heinous crime shall henceforth not be imprisoned because the act of imprisoning them would infringe upon their constitutional rights. Sounds like a plan.

rebelfury76 No Justice, No Peace
06/06/14 9:58 pm

We're talking about constitutional rights here. You can't say that your plan doesn't do that. try to justify it if you want but fact is you're perfectly fine with suspending rights of certain classes of people, not ok.

tastybites Nashville, TN
06/06/14 1:20 pm

People freak out when they see a big gun. If it keeps happening people will eventually calm down. I could understand a handgun, but a high powered rifle is a bit much. I could see someone trying it, but it would end well for the person "standing

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pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
06/07/14 9:21 am

"People freak out when they see a big gun. If it keeps happening people will eventually calm down."
This is exactly why open carry is a good idea: so that people calm down and quit freaking out over something they don't need to.

tastybites Nashville, TN
06/07/14 9:28 am

I've grown up around guns my whole life, I've been hunting since I was a little kid. Seeing people walking around with guns doesn't bother me as long as they are doing it safely. Weapons have been demonized by a lot of people.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
06/07/14 9:49 am

I agree. I see open carry as a criminal deterrent, and also as an opportunity to allay people's irrational fear of guns.

Zod Above Pugetropolis
06/06/14 1:19 pm

I think it's a false premise. The mere visible presence of a holstered or safely carried firearm does not cause a reasonable person to feel threatened.

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veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 1:28 pm

It definitely can. Just look at the responses to shazam's recent polls. If a group of big guys walked in with those weapons, I would definitely feel threatened. If even a fraction of people feel threatened, the deadly conflict exists.

Whichendisup uniquely unoriginal
06/06/14 1:31 pm

Zod, Zimmerman managed to convince a box of jurors that an unarmed person walking away from him made him feel threatened.

veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 1:40 pm

Almost everyone on those polls, including you, said they would run and call 911. Are those actions of people who don't feel threatened?

Zod Above Pugetropolis
06/06/14 1:47 pm

It is an irrational fear a reasonable person does not have. Like most irrational fears, the key to resolving it is probably education and familiarity rather than avoidance.

The George Zimmerman thing equating stalking with standing was an anomaly.

Zod Above Pugetropolis
06/06/14 1:54 pm

In both of these polls, the people were carrying selective-fire, fully automatic weapons that are illegal to carry in that manner. In the first example it was the Uzi, in the second the AK-47. That brazen illegal act implies another - a threat.

veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 2:01 pm

Commenters were expressing the threat from open carry states where AK's are legal.

veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 2:02 pm

And how is it irrational? Gun violence is very real.

Zod Above Pugetropolis
06/06/14 3:03 pm

For purposes of discussion, these particular AK lookalikes were legal, so I remove that concern, but I'm still going to be on edge. Not because of the firearms but because of the speeding car and the men running to the counter. Something's up.

Zod Above Pugetropolis
06/06/14 3:06 pm

And that ties into my main point. Firearms violence is real, but firearms not-violence is also real and exponentially more common. It is the situation that implies the threat, not the mere presence of a firearm. Fearing a gun isn't rational.

TeaPartier Dont Tread on Me
06/06/14 1:17 pm

Open Carry is the best thing. In Arizona you can Open Carry without a permit at 18. We are a good state to live in!

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Arananthi Literal Ninja
06/06/14 1:02 pm

Yup. Someday soon, someone is going to walk up to an Open Carry demonstration and just mow down everyone participating and claim Stand Your Ground, and walk away scott free. Unless they're black, naturally, in which case they'll get executed.

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Arananthi Literal Ninja
06/06/14 1:02 pm

Inspired by OhTheIrony: *Or brown.

kscott516 Masks fail
06/06/14 1:37 pm

That wouldn't fly. Guilty as charged.

Wino I need a drink
06/06/14 7:41 pm

Arananthi- did you see John Stewart last night? Very similar skit after he covered this idea.

veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 12:58 pm

It's a bit hard to explain in 250 characters, so to clarify.

When a group of gun owners walk into a store with AR-15's and AK's, many reasonable people feel like their "ground" is threatened. Stand Your Ground laws allow these threatened people to

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veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 12:59 pm

respond to that threat with deadly force.

Which presents the conundrum. Both laws claim to protect people and secure liberty. But they present this conflict, which open the door to deadly violence where both side have a legal clam to self-defense.

Whichendisup uniquely unoriginal
06/06/14 1:00 pm

very well said, but it's still going to be lost on some.

veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 1:01 pm

I'd especially like to hear from people who support both these laws. Not sure how many of those folks follow me, though.

veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 1:01 pm

Inspired by Jon Stewart, I should add.

veritas1 Panda
06/06/14 1:04 pm

@which. I hope it isn't. This is the kind of conflict that ends in blood.

fredd TrumpLand
06/06/14 1:23 pm

Don't forget to shout, " my life is in danger!" before opening fire. That makes it all ok.

Whichendisup uniquely unoriginal
06/06/14 1:33 pm

lol fredd, how are we only at 55% agree?

kscott516 Masks fail
06/06/14 1:48 pm

That's not a direct threat to your person. If they verbally threatened your life or aimed their weapon at you then yes you have a right to defend yourself. Otherwise you're simply guilty of murdering an innocent person.

Rosebud Ohio
06/06/14 10:34 pm

The polls you're referring to are not just guys walking around with guns. It's guys racing into a shop, and going directly to the front counter with possibly illegal guns. That's not how the average rational person conducts themselves.