Show of HandsShow of Hands

trepidhickory February 3rd, 2014 8:51pm

A 16 year old girl is raped and gets pregnant, 7 weeks later doctors find out that if she tries to give birth she will die. Her legal guardians do not approve of her getting an abortion. Should she be allowed to have the abortion without permission?

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Mattwall1
02/03/14 10:33 pm

I can understand reservations in most situations, even though I'm pro choice. but here, where the girl would DIE if she has to give birth? seriously?

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jonfrei the boonies
02/03/14 9:35 pm

The likelihood of a true "if she tries to give birth she will die" scenario is so slim that this entire question is totally unrealistic.

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DeusOrbus Stay Positive
02/03/14 8:27 pm

Republicans, you can either support this young woman to get and abortion or you can support her to "fall" down some stairs. One is safe and the other endangers the mothers life.

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bluerum29 optimistic idealist
02/03/14 9:40 pm

Why the political aspect to it, to me this has nothin to do with politics

DeusOrbus Stay Positive
02/03/14 9:46 pm

You're right it doesn't. However 43% old Republicans oppose the woman in this scenario having an abortion. I was addressing them. I should have said "People who voted no..."

bluerum29 optimistic idealist
02/03/14 9:48 pm

I am republican and am against abortion unless there is a health issue involved.

DeusOrbus Stay Positive
02/03/14 9:51 pm

Okay, so I would assume that you voted yes since the teenagers life is at risk.

commonman1 Peace
02/03/14 8:17 pm

I'm not republican and it not brain washing I'm worry about. It's the murdering.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/03/14 7:07 pm

There's always a chance that she could make it. Plus, there's always Caesarian sections. I will never support abortion.

JennaF sunflower state of mind
02/03/14 7:23 pm

Let's see how you feel about that if you have a teenaged daughter who gets raped and has to put her life on hold to raise some jerk's baby.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/03/14 7:27 pm

I'd be right there helping her out in any way that I can. I want the best for her, and as such, I would do everything in my power to insure that she keeps my grandchild.

JennaF sunflower state of mind
02/03/14 7:29 pm

Youre telling me you would help raise child of a man who raped your teenage daughter?

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/03/14 7:36 pm

Damn right I would. That child is still has half of my daughter in her.

NYevo NY
02/03/14 8:43 pm

Answer the question as it is asked. She will die if she tries to have this child. You would still expect her not to abort? If so, you're nuts. Plain and simple.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/03/14 9:01 pm

The phrasing of the question is completely unrealistic. There's always a chance for both to survive.

osouless Whats Next
02/03/14 9:57 pm

Do you understand the phrase "hypothetical question"?

NYevo NY
02/04/14 4:54 am

No, he/she clearly doesn't. Because that would require them to answer a question that challenges their ideology. Its just to much to deal with for some people

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/04/14 4:57 am

I understand it just fine. You two are just frustrated that I won't concede your point that you think it's ok to murder one's child in the womb.

osouless Whats Next
02/04/14 5:07 am

But you answer the question as if there's a 3rd option. There are two options. 1. Baby lives, mom dies. 2. Mom lives, baby dies. Pick number 1 or 2

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/04/14 5:09 am

In that case, option 1. The mother has the duty to do everything in her power to insure her child's survival, up to and including sacrificing her own life.

osouless Whats Next
02/04/14 5:26 am

Thank you for answering the original hypothetical.

NYevo NY
02/04/14 5:35 am

Yes, thank you for finally answering the question. Was that so terrible?

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/04/14 9:04 am

Technically, option 1 was not stated in the question.

NYevo NY
02/04/14 9:53 am

"Doctors find out that if she gives birth, she will die". It's crystal clear.

BeNotAfraid missing my sunrise
02/03/14 5:37 pm

This is an extreme hypothesis. At 7 weeks it's determined that she will die if she tries to give birth? Does it mean that C-section is still a viable option? Does it refer to carrying the pregnancy to term? Is the pregnancy ectopic? Not enough info.

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DavesNotHere where am I
02/03/14 5:15 pm

The 15% who said no are not right in the head.

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osouless Whats Next
02/03/14 7:31 pm

Oh they're "right" ifuknowwhatimean ;)

NYevo NY
02/03/14 4:40 pm

Obviously her guardians are crazy and need to have their authority taken away.

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pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/03/14 7:09 pm

I'm SO not surprised that you live in NewYork.

NYevo NY
02/03/14 8:40 pm

Why? because i think a parent who would rather let their daughter die than allow her to get an abortion is a crazy person? I'll take that as a compliment if thats your reasoning.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/03/14 9:02 pm

Because you seem to view government as the end-all-be-all.

NYevo NY
02/03/14 9:44 pm

I see the government, in this scenario, as the method by which a crazy guardian should not be allowed to decide to let their daughter die over said guardian's religious beliefs. I am answering the question as it was asked, if that scenario happened

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/04/14 4:59 am

Who said anything about religious beliefs? You're reading into the question.

Statek Im from the Internet
02/03/14 4:39 pm

Wow, you idiotic republicans letting a 16 year old girl die because she got raped
Or is it that you just don't grasp that this is hypothetical?

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pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/03/14 7:11 pm

There's no guarantee that she'll die. It's a hypothetical.

Statek Im from the Internet
02/03/14 7:12 pm

"If she tries to give birth, she will die"

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/03/14 7:22 pm

There's always a C-section. And it's impossible to say that she will die. Likely, perhaps. But guaranteed? Hardly.

Statek Im from the Internet
02/03/14 7:23 pm

Do you not understand that this is a hypothetical? Hypothetical, as in a made up scenario with made up rules that are clear, yet you choose to ignore them

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/03/14 7:29 pm

Because the rules are clearly impossible to abide by. I will not support killing innocent children in the womb. Ever.

NYevo NY
02/03/14 8:44 pm

But you will allow your daughter to die apparently. Sick

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/03/14 9:02 pm

It's better to try to save both than to kill one.

NYevo NY
02/03/14 9:46 pm

Of course thats better.. Duh!!!! And if you eventually were faced with the horrific choice of having to choose between one and the other, you would...............

sadewt Rexburg, Idaho
02/03/14 4:19 pm

no, but the state ought to take custody of the 16 year old

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sadewt Rexburg, Idaho
02/03/14 8:00 pm

one guardian raped the child, and the other guardian is putting the life of her child in danger.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/03/14 9:04 pm

Your mixing questions. This one did not reference any misdeeds by the guardians.

sadewt Rexburg, Idaho
02/03/14 9:07 pm

ok, you're right. although, according to the question, going through with the pregnancy will kill the girl. in this case, I believe that the moms right to life outweighs the fetus's

sadewt Rexburg, Idaho
02/03/14 9:09 pm

if the c section would work then I'm sure they would opt for that. however I believe that the parents are putting the girls life in danger, which would be grounds for her removal from their custody.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/04/14 5:01 am

There's no guarantee that the doctors are correct in their assessment. Especially not at 7 weeks. Additionally, the child could still survive, even if the mother does not. Either scenario avoids murdering her child.

sadewt Rexburg, Idaho
02/04/14 3:26 pm

so you would rather kill the mom than the child?

mikeey1962 on SOH where else
02/03/14 4:11 pm

Doctors lie, give them a little while they will look at the results and figure out a way to save them both..,

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XercesBlue ...
02/03/14 4:06 pm

Depends on the legality in the state...?

rebelfury76 No Justice, No Peace
02/03/14 4:35 pm

This is more a thought experiment and not a fill In the blank.

XercesBlue ...
02/03/14 4:41 pm

Clearly, but my answer still lies with the legal issue not with the emotional one.

rebelfury76 No Justice, No Peace
02/03/14 5:05 pm

so what's "the law" is all that matters to you?

XercesBlue ...
02/03/14 5:12 pm

The law is what matters to me in straight forward legal cases such as determining who holds the decision for a minor in abortion cases, yes..

XercesBlue ...
02/03/14 5:13 pm

Nice way to try to twist the words though!

rebelfury76 No Justice, No Peace
02/03/14 5:18 pm

I was genuinely curious and looking for clarification. So what are your personal feelings on the matter?

Calzone Bronx
02/03/14 3:40 pm

Legally her parents have the power. A 7 year old doesn't know what's best them.

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osouless Whats Next
02/03/14 3:59 pm

16. If a 7 year old got pregnant i'd be disgusted/amazed.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/03/14 7:14 pm

At least those of who oppose abortion can sleep with a clean conscience.

JennaF sunflower state of mind
02/03/14 7:21 pm

If a sixteen year old gets raped, hell yeah she shouldn't have to go through childbirth all alone and raise her rapist's child. How can YOU sleep with a clean conscience supporting the ruining of a young woman's future?

JennaF sunflower state of mind
02/03/14 7:22 pm

Or even better, you'd let her die. No guilty conscience there.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/03/14 7:24 pm

Childbirth is a big deal, certainly. I've been present for two of my own. And seeing those tiny, helpless, beautiful babies has convinced me beyond a doubt that abortion is NEVER justifiable.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/03/14 7:25 pm

And there's no guarantee that she'll die. That's just not possible to say with 100% certainty. It's better to at least try to save both.

JennaF sunflower state of mind
02/03/14 7:27 pm

So imagine the psychological torment of giving birth to your rapist's baby. Experiencing childbirth should not be so cruel. Doesn't she deserve to have a loving, supporting partner by her side the whole time? Why should she have to go through

JennaF sunflower state of mind
02/03/14 7:28 pm

Yes, there actually is such thing as a guarantee.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/03/14 7:33 pm

The child's father screwed up by raping the mother. No one's arguing that. But rape does not justify murder. Yes, a little temporary pain for the mother is much more preferable than murdering the child.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/03/14 7:34 pm

And childbirth is never guaranteed, either way.

JennaF sunflower state of mind
02/03/14 7:35 pm

What if a sixteen year old is not willing to go through that? It's much more than "a little temporary pain." You're in pain for weeks after a C-section, like you suggested above. Plus the child will forever serve the girl as a reminder of her rapist.

JennaF sunflower state of mind
02/03/14 7:36 pm

You can't reasonably expect any girl to go through that.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/03/14 7:40 pm

6 weeks of pain IS temporary, and it's more discomfort than actual pain after the actual birth.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/03/14 7:41 pm

And as several people have already mentioned (and you seem to be ignoring) there are adoption and foster care services. Not first rate options, to be certain, but they're a damn sight better than being dismembered I the womb.

commonman1 Peace
02/03/14 3:24 pm

This is a no brainier type poll. There is a huge difference between killing a baby for irresponsible reasons and having to take a life to save one. Liberals wants you to believe it's the same.

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osouless Whats Next
02/03/14 3:58 pm

Well first off, at 7 weeks it's no where near "baby". Secondly, morality is subjective therefore this is a personal call, not a moral one.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/03/14 7:16 pm

So much facepalm. Morality is not subjective, and killing your child is never right.

osouless Whats Next
02/03/14 7:36 pm

Well as i said at 7 weeks it is no where near even a "child" area. It's barely a fetus. And morality IS subjective otherwise wars would be against god's will and slavery would still be the norm. As for your view, i disagree but i agree to disagree.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/03/14 7:42 pm

The child is a living, growing human being. To kill him is murder, no matter what stage of development he is in.

commonman1 Peace
02/03/14 7:53 pm

Morality is subjective and Liberals want you to buy off on their morality that living beings are okay to kill to justify their irresponsibility. But hey if they want to kill their offspring then we'll have less irresponsible liberals.

osouless Whats Next
02/03/14 7:55 pm

I'm going to win part if this argument. Either morality is subjective, and therefore we just differ in opinions, or i'm a devil in disguise trying to kill babies/i'm retarded. You decide.

osouless Whats Next
02/03/14 7:58 pm

Common i'm pretty sure we can shame enough republicans into doing the right thing. We're not brainwashing babies or nothin.

commonman1 Peace
02/03/14 8:17 pm

I'm not republican and it not brain washing I'm worry about. It's the murdering.

osouless Whats Next
02/03/14 8:22 pm

Murdering is actually an incorrect use of the term. Murder: The unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human. Abortion: The termination of pregnancy by the removal/expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo before viability.

osouless Whats Next
02/03/14 8:23 pm

Two completely different things.

commonman1 Peace
02/03/14 8:28 pm

Like you said its subjective. To me it murder.

osouless Whats Next
02/03/14 8:42 pm

Fair enough. I can agree to disagree on this issue.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/03/14 9:19 pm

The clinical definition does not change the fact that the mother is intentionally causing severe harm resulting in death to her child. That is what is happening. And it is murder.

osouless Whats Next
02/03/14 9:35 pm

Again you say child. We're not killing children. We're killing anything actually, unless you count cells as a thing unto themselves. No matter your personal view on this, i.e. Yea or nay to abortion, life doesn't start at conception.

osouless Whats Next
02/03/14 9:40 pm

Life unto itself must meet certain criteria. 1. Homeo stasis 2. Organization 3. Metabolism 4. Growth 5. Adaptation 6. Response to stimuli and 7. Reproduction.

commonman1 Peace
02/04/14 4:25 am

Osou you speak of your definition which doesn't mean it correct it's just your definition. It mean nothing to people that believe differently than you who have their own. I believe some people justify the act by which ever way they can.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/04/14 5:04 am

Left unmolested in the womb, the normal course is that that child will develop into a fully functioning human adult. The child is a human being, and it is alive, and killing it is murder.

steelcity Pittsburgh
02/03/14 3:20 pm

"Will die". They know this at 7 weeks? For serious?

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rebelfury76 No Justice, No Peace
02/03/14 3:16 pm

I despise abortion but life of the mother, and also in cases of rape, are the only circumstances I think morality can abide.

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lyyved Virginia
02/03/14 3:34 pm

What about incest?

rebelfury76 No Justice, No Peace
02/03/14 4:35 pm

That's a little trickier. Was it consensual? There's more variables I feel.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/03/14 7:18 pm

Why should the child be punished for the mistakes of the parent(s)? They shouldn't.

NYevo NY
02/03/14 8:50 pm

In the scenario where the 16 "will" die, a decision has to be made. Either her or the embryo. Make a choice and live with it. Dont tell me you dont accept the scenario. Answer the question being asked and realize that both choices suck.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/03/14 9:22 pm

I don't accept the scenario. It's impossible to say that the mother absolutely, positively will die in labor. It's just not possible.

NYevo NY
02/03/14 9:26 pm

Whatever. If you don't want to answer a tough question, i suppose thats your prerogative. Kinda cowardly though.

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/04/14 5:06 am

Not at all. The mother has the duty to do all in her power to insure that the child will survive. If that means sacrificing her own life, then so be it.

NYevo NY
02/04/14 5:37 am

Finally. An answer. Thank you

firefly5 the verse
02/03/14 3:12 pm

file an injunction. If her guardians are actively choosing to let her die, they should be removed as guardians.

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bluerum29 optimistic idealist
02/03/14 2:46 pm

If she gives birth she will die, there should be no argument against in this situation.

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pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/03/14 7:20 pm

It's a hypothetical. There's just as much of a chance that she survives, as that she dies. And it's worth the risk to try to save the child.

bluerum29 optimistic idealist
02/03/14 8:46 pm

The question says if she gives birth she will die. I am not for abortion unless there are health risks for the mother or child. I can understand ( don't like it ) but understand it in those situations

pinkyusuck The Carribean. I wish.
02/03/14 9:23 pm

Getting dismembered in the womb is a pretty damn big risk to the child's life and well being.

bluerum29 optimistic idealist
02/03/14 9:37 pm

You are arguing with someone who disagrees with abortion. Your lack of willing to rationalize on this topic ruins it for the rest of us.

Torfin Never Behind
02/03/14 2:39 pm

Not without permission but against the wishes of her patents, yes. There is a difference.

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bluerum29 optimistic idealist
02/03/14 2:47 pm

The parents, it is a medical procedure their daughter Needs to stay alive.

icytoes the tepid north
02/03/14 2:14 pm

Since it is medically necessary - absolutely!

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EnderWiggin So disillusioned...
02/03/14 2:12 pm

I'd help her get a fake ID. Even cross state lines.

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firefly5 the verse
02/03/14 3:10 pm

same. hell, I even know a guy for that.

bMyComrade Stumptown
02/03/14 2:08 pm

Abso-freaking-lutely!!

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Zimmeress Make Me Laugh
02/03/14 2:05 pm

Absolutely. Obviously those 'guardians' aren't very good at protecting her, therefore negating the fact that they can be her 'say' as guardians.

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Cole12 ...
02/03/14 1:52 pm

Of course.

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