Show of HandsShow of Hands

Mattwall1 February 3rd, 2014 3:05am

Are socialism and communism unamerican?

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Skarface Banned
02/03/14 10:42 pm

No, but you can thank McCarthy for the large amount of people that think so.

steelcity Pittsburgh
02/03/14 5:03 am

Once upon a time....not anymore id say.

skinner Wisconsin
02/03/14 4:21 am

In a way yes. They do seem to conflict greatly with American values.

edrewiii
02/02/14 11:33 pm

Without a doubt. Sad so many dems seem to think otherwise. At least they are admitting it apparently.

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MissPresident California
02/02/14 11:37 pm

The results surprised me too

Mattwall1
02/02/14 11:47 pm

first of all, no group is unanimous here, so don't paint this all on one party. second, there is a difference between agreeing or disagreeing with something, and saying its american or american

edrewiii
02/03/14 5:05 am

Well, as of now 92% of the dems that voted just said no so that is pretty telling. Both of those use force to take from the people that earned and give to people that did not. That is about as un-American as it gets in my book. You think otherwise??

Mattwall1
02/03/14 7:08 am

when 16% of republicans, 76% of independents, and 5% of libertarians also say no, then no, its just another partisan attack, and I'll say this, I don't support those-from either side. and again, supporting or opposing socialism and communism and

Mattwall1
02/03/14 7:09 am

answering if they are american or un-American ARE two different things.

edrewiii
02/03/14 7:22 am

So if you don't consider communism or socialism un-American, what would you consider un-American?

Mattwall1
02/03/14 7:35 am

I can't speak for them, nor will I.

edrewiii
02/03/14 7:55 am

I was actually asking you specifically unless you are one of the few Democrats that chose yes. Not an attack, seriously just curious...

Mattwall1
02/03/14 8:22 am

I said yes in the sense that I don't think either work and I wouldn't want the US turned into a communist state, or a socialist state (actual socialist not what people call socialist but usually is just a political ploy), but the whole american vs

Mattwall1
02/03/14 8:24 am

un-American thing sometimes grates me-and I've met others who see it more as nationalism than anything else, though I wouldn't go that far, so in that sense no. so yes and no i guess.

edrewiii
02/03/14 8:39 am

Gotcha, for me I simply looked at what America should be and what the founding fathers intended it to be. In no way would socialism or communism be considered American so it was an easy choice for me and difficult to see why others thought otherwise.

Alph4omega
02/02/14 9:41 pm

like capitalism works

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NYevo NY
02/02/14 9:27 pm

I support neither, but it would only be unamerican if those who believed in it tried to push it onto others by means not provided for within our constitution. America should be what it, by majority, wants to be within the confines of our constitution

Abolitionist Voice of the people
02/02/14 9:21 pm

Socialism can't be American because capitalism brought us slavery, which is American?

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Mattwall1
02/02/14 9:23 pm

I'm just going to bookmark this

skinner Wisconsin
02/03/14 4:20 am

Actually in a sense didn't mercantilism bring us slavery?

Mattwall1
02/03/14 7:10 am

that true, although I've heard some consider mercantilism a form of capitalism, but yeah mercantilism brought it. whether laissez faire had any issue with it staying a practice is another issue. I'll be the first to state I don't know Adam Smith's

Mattwall1
02/03/14 7:11 am

personal views on slavery, so I won't guess, not even cynically. Maybe I could go back in time and talk to him when he drank buttered toast from a teapot? (yes, that actually happened, and in an odd way, would be funny to watch)

doctalk not all who wander r lost
02/02/14 9:08 pm

Neither are, however media seems to have a significant bias supporting the move toward socialism.
The public are then deprived of a fair view of the outcome.

DeusOrbus Stay Positive
02/02/14 9:06 pm

No, I consider socialism to be for everyone. I would call the bastardization of communism that we've observed un-American however.

KAnne Atlantic City, NJ
02/02/14 9:02 pm

No. America is about freedom. That includes the freedom to have your own political beliefs.

MissPresident California
02/02/14 11:36 pm

Because America was founded on protecting life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Hundreds of men died to protect that concept and that's what makes America the free country it is today. Communism is the most unamerican concept there is.

Colorado303 Future Seattle Resident
02/02/14 8:47 pm

Anything that America does is American

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Ernest Make it so
02/02/14 9:33 pm

Because the nature of how this country was founded, the ideas, ideals, and principals of personal freedom and choice. The idea that the government is to be limited.

Abolitionist Voice of the people
02/02/14 9:53 pm

Yeah, wert. Like freedom to own slaves

Ernest Make it so
02/02/14 9:59 pm

We can all look at things that we're acceptable at the time and place, but those exceptions are not the rule.

Mattwall1
02/02/14 11:48 pm

ernest, considering how long humanity has felt it perfectly acceptable to own slaves, doesn't that make us the exception?

Ernest Make it so
02/03/14 3:37 am

It does and I agree, we are exceptional xD

Mattwall1
02/03/14 7:12 am

I think you knew I was meaning the fact that we've, both as humanity and as americas, if you count the colonial period, had slavs MUCH longer than we've felt slavery to be wrong.

Ernest Make it so
02/03/14 7:49 am

In a world that still practices slavery, it's important to remember that the US doesn't. Being an indentured worker/slave was part of how the colonies were started, but not how it ended.

Mattwall1
02/03/14 8:00 am

true, most of the indentured servants were-as per their contract-freed. the slaves? some were freed, some freed themselves, and most? we all know that answer

Ernest Make it so
02/03/14 4:54 pm

Yup, many years, a war and then many more years to correct a human flaw in the perception of certain people being subhuman.

smartfart Florida
02/02/14 8:35 pm

Well, the Constitution has the copyright & contract clauses, & fourth amendment leading to capitalism. Of course, the commerce, coinage, & export clauses show the founders wanting strong government involvement in economy. Socialism? Bite your tongue!

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Mattwall1
02/02/14 8:55 pm

i know they are different. usually people consider them similar enough to count as the same

Wert A picture of my package
02/02/14 8:59 pm

Yup. I'm certain you know, Matt. I posted that to try to get everyone on the same track. I'm doubtful most will look at it. But, I tried.

MrLove lovers, dreamers and me
02/02/14 9:02 pm

Thanks Wert. I'm a socialist, I am not a communist.

firefly5 the verse
02/02/14 8:26 pm

no. They're un-capitalist, but not un-american.

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MisterE Conservistan
02/02/14 8:20 pm

I reject the premise that there are values that characterize "Americans".

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Abolitionist Voice of the people
02/02/14 8:19 pm

Conservatives = "don't take God out of pledge of allegiance, leave it as it is, don't alter it, leave it alone, it's American!!"

Pledge of allegiance = wrote by a socialist.

Priceless

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beanD California
02/02/14 8:21 pm

Admittedly you don't have to agree with every one of a person's political views to like something that they wrote.

Abolitionist Voice of the people
02/02/14 8:22 pm

if a socialist wrote it, then its obviously part of our history and who we are, whether people want to admit or not.

NDAmerican WV Escapee
02/02/14 8:23 pm

Just because someone wrote something doesn't mean their political beliefs reflect it.

Abolitionist Voice of the people
02/02/14 8:24 pm

I think you guys are missing the point.

beanD California
02/02/14 8:25 pm

Abolitionist I think that's a bit of a stretch to say - the quote is part of our history, but the guy isn't, and neither are his political beliefs (as is demonstrated by the fact that few people know who wrote it).

MisterE Conservistan
02/02/14 8:26 pm

It's even funnier that he was a Christian Socialist, and didn't even include "under god".

Wert A picture of my package
02/02/14 8:26 pm

Point




Head level

Abolitionist Voice of the people
02/02/14 8:39 pm

Bean is pretty much saying if you're only an American if she agrees with you.

beanD California
02/02/14 8:43 pm

Not really... The point I'm making is that appreciating a single quote doesn't mean you appreciate a person, and that just bc the quote is part of our history doesn't necessarily mean the person is. I'm not extrapolating beyond this situation.

Mattwall1
02/02/14 8:58 pm

bean, maybe I'm confusing you and someone else, but when I debated the lord, liar, or lunatic/ mad, bad, or god trilemma, I was told why would should I listen to jesus at all if i didn't think he was god/divine/lord. if it wasn't you Im sorry, but

Mattwall1
02/02/14 8:59 pm

would you say the same there?

beanD California
02/02/14 9:11 pm

Can't say I followed that sentence or how it's relevant, sorry :( But no, I don't think that was me.

Mattwall1
02/02/14 9:14 pm

sorry, i know its a bit off topic. if it wasn't you don't worry about it, but basically if you have to either agree jesus is god then to think anything he said was true but you don't have to believe everything the writer of the pledge did to like on

Mattwall1
02/02/14 9:14 pm

e thing he did.... but since it wasn't you, nm

MisterE Conservistan
02/02/14 9:15 pm

But the pledge does reflect the statist undertones often found in socialist rhetoric.

beanD California
02/02/14 9:17 pm

Well, a claim that you're God is a little different (and more extreme) than being a socialist, haha.

Mattwall1
02/02/14 9:20 pm

that doesn't change the fact that not having the same answer to both is intellectually dishonest and picking and choosing where to hold certain standards

MrLove lovers, dreamers and me
02/02/14 8:19 pm

I wish more people would take the time to look up socialism. It's pretty awesome, and NOT communism. :(

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NDAmerican WV Escapee
02/02/14 8:21 pm

But socialism generally leads to communism.

Wert A picture of my package
02/02/14 8:37 pm

No. In fact, there are many socialistic countries of which have not sought communism. There are actually very few communist countries.

beanD California
02/02/14 8:45 pm

Read a bit of Hayek. Any sort of planning is always a problem, bc no 3rd party planner (politician) can know the production and markets he's dealing with well enough unless he's the producer.

NDAmerican WV Escapee
02/02/14 8:49 pm

No country is truly socialistic though

Mattwall1
02/02/14 9:01 pm

bean, I can't speak for wert, but I have read hayek. i just don't think he is correct.

beanD California
02/02/14 9:13 pm

Why? Do you think a politician can know a market, demand, means of production, and everything else, well enough to make decisions concerning it?

Mattwall1
02/02/14 9:19 pm

not completely, but I also don't believe a market left to its own devices works out in the long run very well either. producers aren't perfect either. no one is, nor is the market. not even close, but at least some people have some incentive to try

Wert A picture of my package
02/02/14 8:18 pm

Based on some of the comments, I think some people have very different ideas about what these really are.

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Mattwall1
02/02/14 9:04 pm

yep.

beanD California
02/02/14 8:14 pm

Freedom, individuality, and innovation are what America is all about. Socialism and especially communism try their best to get rid of these.

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Zod Above Pugetropolis
02/02/14 8:13 pm

Both, but especially socialism, are a big part of our history. And, you know, unions and whatnot.

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Mattwall1
02/02/14 8:15 pm

I'm going to guess you're the red vote from washington then?

Zod Above Pugetropolis
02/02/14 8:19 pm

Yes, I voted no. They are not unAmerican, they are part of who we are.

political Georgia
02/02/14 8:13 pm

It is absolutely the opposite of what this great country was founded on.

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rlands
02/02/14 8:09 pm

I think so. Socialism at least. Free enterprise is a very American concept. Socialism doesn't really allow for that.

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Liberty Lets Use Logic
02/02/14 8:09 pm

Define "American."

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Mattwall1
02/02/14 8:11 pm

In this sense, American: of, relating to, or characteristic of the United States or its inhabitant.

Wert A picture of my package
02/02/14 8:15 pm

Basically, can you say "YEEEE HAAAAH" after it, and it still sounds good.

wetheslaves Live each moment fully
02/02/14 8:19 pm

Go down that road and invite the global or new world order.

Wert A picture of my package
02/02/14 8:22 pm

Last I checked, it was the neo-cons that were taking us in the direction of a new world order.

Liberty Lets Use Logic
02/02/14 9:30 pm

Well, I guess I'd say they are unamerican then.

Hold on:
Communism, YeeHaw!!!

Nah, unamerican...

NDAmerican WV Escapee
02/02/14 8:08 pm

Yes, this country was built on the back of economic freedom and guaranteed liberties. Socialism can be pushed, but definitely not communism!

Mattwall1
02/02/14 8:09 pm

So socialism isn't inherently unamerican communism is definitely unamerican?

NDAmerican WV Escapee
02/02/14 8:15 pm

Well communism is government control, which we outlined to prevent, socialism is people control in which can to some extent be seen and done. But communism and any other totalitarian gov system is unamerican.

Wert A picture of my package
02/02/14 8:07 pm

America is a lot more socialist than I think many care to admit, and always has been. Socialism isn't necessarily bad.

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Abolitionist Voice of the people
02/02/14 8:06 pm

It seems if they were UnAmerican then we wouldn't recite a pledge of allegiance wrote by a socialist.

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inge MIA
02/02/14 8:07 pm

Shh. No one likes to be reminded of that :)

Mattwall1
02/02/14 8:08 pm

Wasn't woody Guthrie, the writer of this land is your land, a communist?

Wert A picture of my package
02/02/14 8:50 pm

Associated with, but not a member of, Communist groups.

Mattwall1
02/02/14 8:54 pm

thats close enough for most people, wouldn't you say?

Mattwall1
02/02/14 10:53 pm

considering people like to paint democrats as communists and obama as hilted or stalin, anything at all seems to count