Do you think that women make less than men on average due to workplace discrimination, or due to choices to pursue different careers?
I've found the hardest thing to do in discussions of this kind is to convince White Males of the privilege they have in society. Many WM work hard, study hard, achieve but in the end if they have success it is partially due to their privilege. Sorry
I find the hardest thing to do is get lazy assholes like you to realize how useless you are to is. The only privilege I have is the fact that everyone else sucks so much. We(white males) carry society on our backs...
I think it's both.
As a female police officer, I made the same amount as the men. Now granted, in my dept there was great disparity in the number of female admin, only one.
I majored in education, which is a field dominated by women. My husband majored in engineering, dominated by men. Which major will make you more money? Therefore, which gender will dominate those higher-paying jobs?
I worked for a few months in the 80's for a jewelry chain that paid men higher commission rates than women, because "men have a family to support." I was top salesperson, but one I learned about the difference, I quit. Never had the issue since.
If that were the case, I would hire all women and save money.
But it doesn't work that way people.
liberals are not the smartest crayons in the shed.
Crayon in the shed?
You mean sharpest tool in the box? ;)
Any studies on straight v gay salaries?
All my gay friends are rich.
In high tech, women get paid more than men for the same job. Everyone's desperate to hire them.
I started as an bookkeeper in 1981 at $200 a week. A woman started the same time as me. She also made $200 a week. She left in 1982, me in 2012. I looked her up on Facebook recently and was surprised she did not have a college degree like I did.
Income inequality is a political tool to make people envious of others. Liberal emotional tactics. People are hired based on their experience and knowledge, and paid that way, as it should be.
Look at the facts which dispute your claim. What facts beyond all these anecdotal incidents posted on this post do you have to support your contention?
A study of Yale's hiring practices showing subtle, likely unintentional, gender bias www.genengnews.com/insight-and-intelligence/women-still-have-to-prove-themselves-in-academic-hiring/77899695/
"The study?s most embarrassing finding showed that a group of biology, chemistry, and physics professors favored a male job candidate ?John? over a female ?Jennifer? with identical qualifications for a fictitious science lab manager position."
"We are not suggesting that these biases are intentional or stem from a conscious desire to impede the progress of women in science"
"the behavior reflects repeated exposure to pervasive cultural stereotypes that cause subtle gender biases to linger in even the most egalitarian individuals despite decreases in overt sexism over the past few decades"
Here's the problem with the whole discussion here, and elsewhere, about this topic: one side assumes that it's being accused of overt sexism and gets defensive. The catch with the gender gap is its subtle, unconscious, but pervasive, discrimination.
Yup, exactly. So much cognitive dissonance going on. So many people terrified of having to admit that a problem exists. When you deny the problem, especially in the face of clear evidence it exists, you become part of the problem.
Of course, in the interest of unbiased science, one should do a study to ascertain whether women and men perform identically at the job in question...
This study relates purely to hiring practices, therefore performance is controlled for.
No it isn't. It's possible that a man or a woman would actually be better at the job than an equally-qualified counterpart of the opposite sex.
Sex may in and of itself BE a qualification.
Clearly you didn't read the article and are making unfounded and unsupportable adoptions.
This presupposes the unproven premise that masculinity and femininity are equal qualifications. Politically, it may be conducive to say they are, but reality and nature prove to be more discriminatory, so the assumption is not a safe one.
While I agree that there is still discrimination throughout the workplaces of America, at the same time don't waste six years in school for a Master's Degree in Early 14th Century Romanian Women Studies of musical Influence and Basket Weaving
and expect to get any job you want at an unreasonable starting pay for said job with said degree. Women should be paid for their level of education, work place seniority, and skills. Same as men. It is that simple.
I knew there was something we agreed on. Gotta say I'm surprised and gratified by the quality of discussion on this question.
Here's the thing, no one is expecting that to pay equal to an electrical engineering degree, what they are expecting is that two people with electrical engineering degrees would earn comparable wages for similar experience and training
Straw man, Congressman.
I agree with you Comrade, that's how it should be. But there are people (regardless of gender) who obtain the most useless degrees imaginable to feel intellectually superior and can't understand why no one will hire them. It's not a straw man.
The straw man is making that a gender issue.
Old stereo types such as they will leave the company to have a family also contribute.
In the same job position at the same company women often make less than men. If that's not blatant discrimination, I don't know what is.
Because sometimes men are better at those jobs. It's not discrimination, it's facts. I can build a house faster than a woman. Why pay me the same?
That's a pretty sexist assumption. Besides, speed I would rather have a job done well than done quickly.
It's not sexist, it's just the way our bodies are. I can carry a piece of wood around more easily and put it down properly faster. Both sexes might be as careful when building a house, but id rather have a random man, in this case, than a random wman
Just as you'd probably rather have a woman take care of your kid in preschool over a man. We just have different skills.
I can see your argument with the house (true though it's not what the discussion is about), but why would a man be an inferior preschool teacher?
Your arguments are case by case because I know plenty of women that can hold their own. As a stay at home father working on my MBA, I am fine with a male pre-school teacher. But I understand both points in general.
My major requires a great deal of math, and all of my classes have been complete sausage fests. Women just aren't as likely to go for more lucrative degrees. Yeah there's more to it, but education choices are a major determinant of future earnings.
Proud to have a daughter majoring in physics and getting top grades. :)
Stereotypes are alive and well on this post!
problem is, the wage difference shows up in people with the same qualifications.
Stereotype my ass. I didn't say all women avoid STEM majors. Most do though, and that's a measurable statistic.
Physics. LOL. 4 years college; 8 years grad school for a Phd and ten years of post-doc work before finding a job.
Don't let your daughter throw the best years of her life away on that.
Single women without family responsibility are on par w/ men. I want flexibility because for me my kids and husband trump everything else.
The discrepancy may not happen intentionally in the job offer, but over time when male executives talk to and network with other men, invite them to play golf, attend sports games or lunch, and the men develop relationships the women are not able to.
I read a lengthy study on this. There is discrimination but it is like the fifth factor. Other factors included hours worked per day, majors selected in college, studies after employment and per cent of time working v. Employed.
Also less job mobility or their job is secondary to hubby's move. Add it all up and yes it comes in at 77%.
I forgot one from the Yale study: men are often better negotiators for pay.
My place of employment grants both sick leave and annual leave. There is also a program where annual leave can be donated to other employees that gave used all there sick leave due to prolonged illness. Each month employees receive an email that
lists everyone asking for leave donations. Without fail, women outnumber men by am average of 8 to 1. Not being judgmental, but More time away from work (maternity leave covered separately) may just be one factor in wage difference between sexes.
Interesting thing is these politicians that cry sexism also pay women less. Pelosi and the obama White House pay women staffers less.
Don't you know it's insensitive to confuse the liberal mind with reality based facts?
If I fired 20 male employees and hired 20 female employees saving 20% who is victimized?
You could argue the fired guys.
Perhaps the greedy company that gave up experience to save a few bucks.
If the women got jobs they were happy to have at a pay rate that was acceptable then I don't see them as victims. They didn't have to take d/job
That's why men disproportionately lost more jobs in the Great Recession.
While I agree the .77/1 statistic is inaccurate, when you look at the average salary in a given profession, say, a doctor or engineer, there is consistently a wage gap between men and women that varies from around a .05-.25 difference for every dolla
Male doctors work a lot more hours on average. Anyone who works more hours in a profession should get paid more.
The facts are clear.
Why would an employer discriminate?
Most employers just want the job done and couldn't care about gender. A lot of employers are so afraid of bogus discrimination claims that they discriminate in favor of their females. Male victims are defenseless.
Got any actual statistical evidence for that claim?
I won't hold my breath.
I have a lot of first hand experience including several bogus claims.
I also know for a fact that an employer would be extremely irresponsible to pass up the best employee to select one based on personal biases.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"...
And the point is that people aren't AWARE of their biases. No one thinks people are affirmatively choosing not to hire women because they're women. The problem is that women are perceived differently before
people even reach the point of recognizing objective qualifications. It's subconscious. People don't like to admit that they don't have full command of their subconscious so they pretend it isn't coloring their perceptions, thus perpetuating things.
I prefer people I like & enjoy being around.
I'll hire the best person for the organization.
That is seldom a person that is antagonist or abrasive.
Given an attractive young lady and one less confrontational I'll take peace.
I'm aware of my biases and they are consistent with the organization.
So it's consistent with your organization to associate being "abrasive" with unattractiveness? And it's consistent to deem attractiveness a legitimate consideration in hiring women?
At least you admit you have sexist biases, I guess.
Yes, I have biases.
I prefer likable people and I consider the whole person & how they fit in the organization. I'll take less job skills if the overall result is best for the organization.
I don't want to hire confrontational, dysfunctional folks
Beth: Sorry but you aren't getting an offer from me.
Lol Casper. I'd never intentionally apply for a job where I'd be working for a sexist old fart who uses terms like "young lady" to refer to women, and calls women "confrontational" and "dysfunctional" for having opinions they aren't afraid to voice.
The reason women generally make less is that they cannot do as much physical labor as men
I'd say the outcome of this poll is nearly spot on. It's mostly choices with a minority of women still facing discrimination.
Most women that I've known make more then me, I've only known one millionaire in my entire life and he was a guy. I would imagine most women are concerned with making friends, boyfriends and babies then making money.
You know there's women on soap boxes on here right? Prepared to be labeled...
this question is a double-edged sword because women are traditionally blocked from the many higher-paying jobs, through no fault or effort of their own
The question oversimplified a lot.
Blocked by whom?
Problem is, many jobs that women traditionally do more often, like counseling and educating, are not valued as much when it comes to the pocketbook. Other jobs are seen as more worthy of a six figure income, so those people get paid more.
Value of a career field isn't determined by some magical patriarchy decision machine in the sky that forces people to "view" counseling as less valuable than engineering. Value of a service or good isn't based in some bigotry. It's based in utility.
The wage gap shows up between men and women in the same fields. Not all studies average across the board (doing that produced the .77/1 number. The gap is still evident when comparing within similar positions with similar qualifications 5-10 cents
What I hate about this statistic is that it takes no other factors into account
companies should hire the highest quality employees. And a lot of times that person is a woman. I think the wage differences will soon disappear.
You know why this conspiracy is bullsh-t? If it were true, profit-minded companies would ONLY hire women because they could get the same labor for a cheaper rate.
Unless the employers subconsciously believe women are worse at their jobs (thus explaining why they would pay them less to start with).
Where I work women make more than men for the same work
Where do you work, and how do you know that? That would be an interesting outlier, but just a single data point. Doesn't mean the stats are wrong.
I work for a bank, and I know what my peers make who started with me
They hired the women you work with at higher starting salaries? Even though you all had the same experience?
Yes, as college grads. Similar majors too
That's bizarre? Were you worried that asking to be paid the same might result in retaliation against you?
Well it couldn't help. But we're paid well enough where I don't really care to rock the boat
I can understand that. I think that's how a lot of people wind up feeling when they're being treated unfairly :-/ that really sucks. Hope you find a fairer employer soon.
Not much in life is 100.00% fair so I keep it in perspective
straight white men have no recourse so they can be fired with no consequences to the company. I'm gonna act gay in order protect my dam self.
That's ridiculous. Gender discrimination is illegal in either direction. It's just that it rarely happens to men.
I'm not going to deny that a lot of it does have to do with choice, but discrimination plays a strong hand in the making of the choice itself and outside of choice.
There is WAY more age discrimination than gender regarding equal pay.
Old people do make much more on average than younger people. Usually they call that "experience."
Which is why old people don't get jobs when they're looking.
Old people don't get jobs because of their lack of experience.
No one wants to deal with someone that doesn't have basic computer skills.
"Old" people may have learned their computer skills on the job instead of at grade school but that doesn't make them less valuable. People with a mature attitude make better employees, regardless of age.
Insert every democrats government solution here....
Both, and also keep in mind that choice can itself be a function of the effects of discrimination.
Also, the post is inflammatory and incorrect. Although the 77 cents number is known to overstate the disparity (and I agree people should stop using it for that reason), depending on source the unexplained pay gap is still 4-12 cents on the dollar.
Also, Yale recently did a controlled study conclusively demonstrating the existence of unconscious gender bias: blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/2012/09/23/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/
Both. Career choice is a major factor, but it is not the only factor.
I used to work in post-secondary education. I know for a certainty that when equally qualified men & women were offered the same position that the man was offered more money.
Also, when a single person & a married person applied for the position, the married person was offered more money. I am not saying this is the case everywhere, but it was there.
Unlike the other places that I have worked & the placed where my parents worked, there was not a published or set (written) pay range for any position. When this happens, I think discrimination is more likely.
A woman that my husband knew at work was discriminated for the simple reason that she is a woman. She was teaching the men a job she perfected but she wasn't allowed to advance. The men did. She sued & won.
I'm convinced it's career choice, but even so, gender issues do exist: my daughter is pursuing a degree in electrical engineering and women are outnumbered at least 10:1 in her department.
Engineering is an exceptionally worthwhile long-term career path, so why the disparity?
One thought ... unlike Fashion Design or Women's Studies, Engineering requires hard work.
Too many are adverse to hard work.
Maybe because our society believes & accepts that males are better at math & science than females & engineering requires a lot of math & science.
As a female who was strong in math & science, I can tell you that rather than being celebrated for overcoming the accepted norm, than I was treated more like a freak, especially by male math teachers.
@bamagirl- you're dead on. I'm majoring in computer science and I've seen this first hand. I notice when someone has a question and asks everyone in the room but me. When I work in a group and they won't try my ideas (even when theirs aren't working)
I notice the stares if I come in remotely dressed up. Maybe if we didn't make women feel they had to prove their themselves on behalf of their gender or make them feel shut out, more would be in tech. You can see it in the elementary kids at
Programming camp already. The heart of the issue is here: guy messes up, he's stupid. Girl messes up: all women are stupid and see? Women aren't good at computer science.
Thinking we (parents) were a good influence and we for sure had good role models: my mom majored in economics, my aunt has a masters in math, and my mother-in-law is a CPA. Hopefully dumb stereotype re: girls and math is fading.
Did you see the ad for girls engineering toys during the Super Bowl?
Manru ... when leftists can't think of anything intelligent to say they often revert to name calling. Thanks for keeping the streak alive!
Think, it was a tacky comment on your part. It also demonstrates an attitude that is part of the problem. I am not a leftist by any stretch, BTW.
My daughter plans to study Mechanical Engineering.
A part of active parenting is challenging children to find what they love.
Leftists who abdicate parenting to the "village" are somehow surprised when their kids turn out rudderless and confused.
Bama ... which part was tacky and which is a part of the problem?
Was it the truth hurting some overly sensitive self-defined victims?
Think, you said, "One thought ... unlike Fashion Design or Women's Studies, Engineering requires hard work. Too many are adverse to hard work". How is that not tacky? You implied that most women are lazy.
Bama ... you're the one who is now suggesting that "most women" choose Fashion Design or Women's Studies.
I only suggest that by comparison, those who choose lazy fields of study are selling themselves short!
Think, I only quoted you. I think nothing of the sort. BTW, it's spelled "oops".
This was the first you mentioned anything about people selling themselves short. The question was asked why fewer women choose engineering & you responded with two majors which would have more females & said they didn't require hard work.
Bama ... is your position so weak that we are now distracted by your preferred spelling choices? Last I checked, the Yellowhammer State was spelled "Alabama". But we digress.
While I'd admit that my comment was stark, maybe even harsh, it is true!
Think- saying sexist shit isn't a good way to "prove" sexism is over. Just a thought :)
If you knew much about my home state, then you would know that Bama has been one of its nicknames for a long time.
Bama ... you've successfully changed the subject from something relevant to something trivial.
AJ ... the sad thing is you couldn't see sexist if it hit you in the face! The facts maybe too harsh for you tender heart, if do, but it's time to grow up!
It's pretty easy to identify here. Lets start where you claimed women I'm general don't like to work hard.
AJ ... Tru again. I said SOME are lazy, certainly not all!
You may want to focus on reading comprehension ... unless you were intentionally attempting to play the victim card ...
Also, you are the one failing to make a substantial argument. I simply pointed out your spelling error, because of the lack of substance to your argument.
@think- you're trying to save yourself here. You were offering it as a reason fewer women are present in the tech field. Saying the gender disparity is due to some women being lazier is saying more women are lazy than men- otherwise it wouldn't be a
A reason to have a gender disparity. If that isn't what you meant, you should have read your comment more carefully. Reading comprehension buddy.
Bama ... you chose to twist my statement, I corrected that. Do you stand by your assertion that most women chose the lazy path?
I reaffirm that some courageous women choose to study worthy subjects, like medicine and engineering. What about you?
AJ ... as there are no barriers to entrance into engineering schools, in fact as women are actively recruited over men, how then do to explain the dismal showing of women in technical disciplines and the flood in "Women's Studies" and other nonsense?
AJ ... it's okay if you can't admit when you're wrong. You see, your approval isn't what I seek.
I made a true statement. It unfortunate that it's true, but it remains so, even if you don't like it! I prefer to id the cause an attack it, not hide
Think - I did not twist your statement & you didn't successfully refute anything.
Did you miss the part where I said that was good at math & science? Do you think I don't like or support myself?
@think- so then you DO think women are lazier than men. Back to your original statement: saying women are lazier than men is sexist.
And as to why, it can't have anything to with what I mentioned in previous comments or with boys being steered
Toward tech? It's laziness? Here is what you're saying "Sexism isn't real because of this sexist thing I think and have no evidence for". All right, makes sense.
A few things that you should know about me that are relevant to this discussion. When I was in 6th grade, I participated in Duke University's Talent Identification Program (TIP). As part of TIP in the 6th grade, I took the SAT right beside juniors &
Bama ... it's now clear that you're looking for validation, so ... yeah Bama. Now, if you could focus past yourself and read the comment -- not as a victim, but as someone ready to fix a problem -- you might be able to admit that far too many ...
... girls focus far too much time on meaningless wastes of time and miss the valuable educational opportunities that they have.
Their hair will fade, skin wrinkle. Why waste so much time on it!? More girls should focus more on core subjects!
& seniors in high school. I scored above more than 50% of the juniors & seniors nationwide on the Math section.
Additionally, I am a member of Mensa, so I am certainly not the idiot you seem to think I am.
AJ ... unlike you, I don't think of women as a single entity. My comment was that TOO MANY (one is too many) waste their time.
Your inability to comprehend rather straightforward logic is likely a good example of the point! Grow up!
I have for Associate degrees, a BA in English, a Bachelors in Business Administration, & a MBA with an emphasis in Information Systems (which is an academic term for computer systems).
Bama ... so you think your "credentials" afford you the right to twist others' words?
Your problem may be that your intellectual ignorance is getting in the way.
No matter, I wish the best for you, hoping first you grow out of your victimhood!
Think, you make A LOT of assumptions about me, about AJ, & about women, I truly hope that you do not treat the women in your life, especially your daughter with such malice. The thing that makes this even sadder is that you are so jaded that you
Bama ... 30 years as a Computer Scientist leads me to conclude that you chose the watered down version of the discipline.
But that's ok, you sound like you can hold your own ... now if you can just get past that huge chip on your shoulder ...
can't even admit your bias. I am sad for you.
Bama ... I'm far from perfect, but my daughters -- all there of them -- have turned out to be strong women who know their value. They are certainly nobody's victim and never attempt to excuse their mistakes or play the victim card. All the best!
I am not a victim. I chose the path that I wanted. Your arrogance & condescension are the every reason that your first comment was not well received. Maybe you need to work on your people skills.
Bama ... you've pegged me correctly. I don't suffer the whiners or excuse makers.
I expect the best from myself and challenge all around me to reach for the stars, not the Kleenex.
... every day, princess ... iWork on my people skills every day. I recommend the same for you.
You might start by removing the Mensa milestone around your neck.
Think- now you are just talking down to bama girl and trying to get a rise out of her. I seriously did a double take when I saw you had a daughter- you're arguing like a 14 year old. Come back with something other than an ad hominem attack and well
AJ ... I thought you were an intelligent person who could reason. It's clear that you're so mired in your victim hood that you've lost that ability.
I can't help you. I wish you the best! Cheers
AJ, Marnu was correct & I know better than to "feed them". I thought Think was reasonable. I was obviously wrong. I'm not wasting anymore of my time with this arrogant jerk.
Good call, I've decided the same haha
Career choice plays a big part, but that doesn't mean there is no discrimination or other societal issues preventing women from taking top positions at companies, etc.
I work in the payroll business. It is against the law to pay based on gender and in thousands of clients I have yet to see it outside of modeling. 100% occupational and career choices.
Thanks for sharing your insight!
Payroll just means getting the proper amount of taxes withheld from paychecks and managing pay days so employees are paid on time. It isn't HR. You aren't in charge of hiring and you have no idea how the wages are agreed on before you process them.
Allow me to expand... I work in 'employer services' and I have had thousands of clients. I consult hr, recruiting p, performance and compensation. I do know how much people get paid and how those decisions are made.
Do you ever ask why women are paid less than men? How do your clients answer that question?
Or are you suggesting that there is no pay gal whatsoever at any of your clients? That'd be quite a sweeping claim. You'd have to know a LOT of people's salaries to be able to make it.
I've found that men seem more likely to get promoted whilen women are more likely to get stuck in administrative or HR.
I think mainly careers but then we must ask why do predominantly female career, such as teaching and nursing, pay less?
And lets also ask why women shy away from professions that involve high risk, extreme work conditions and time away from home!
Face it, this is yet another Democrat led boondoggle to avoid facing their failure to govern. Don't women feel used?
The comparison isn't elementary school teachers to loggers, its people in the same occupations.
Comrade ... don't mislead! Show your sources!
When you are unable, we can conclude that it's just another Democrat lie.
Says the man who hasn't posted sources in this thread either.... Think, you are a hypocrite, don't ask me to cite sources if you haven't done the same.
And I've posted several sources in this forum. From the BLS and the GAO.
So you're saying you're both full of shit and vinegar?
Think- you're a disgrace. With the income inequality between men and women being what is it, the idea that to suppose this is sexism/discrimination is a democratic plot to gain female support seems to miss the fact that there is sexism in hiring.
RoDe ... I hope the kool-aid tastes good.
Comrade ... because I know truth causes you to convulse ...
Comrade ... you weren't being dishonest when you failed to state how MrO twisted the facts, right? MrO's got a new set of Pinocchios!
Think- I'm still focused on the fact that you think the disparity in income between women and men is a democratic ploy at getting women voter. It is so absurd and insulting to women that it's not funny.
Why would democrats need a ploy to get women voters when the Republicans want to restrict abortion and force them to see ultrasounds of the fetus they plan to about. Republicans are pics and make all men look bad.
Pigs*. With the way you guys act towards women the idea that democrats need some fake ploy is so wrong.
@Think- this is why even fairly conservative women tend to be wary of the Republican Party. Fun idea: want support? Stop denying sexism is a thing. It's one thing to have a different solution than Dems, but you're just in denial.