Show of HandsShow of Hands

badattitude May 28th, 2018 4:28am

Dr. Peter Pry is the expert on EMP. Natural or man made. He said that we are extremely vulnerable to attack from the sun or evil countries. If our grid is knocked out, 90% of America will probably die. Protecting it costs only a couple billion.

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Krystina Let Freedom Reign
05/28/18 10:09 am

This is where our federal government should be spending money. Their number one job is to protect us from enemies both foreign and domestic. That includes protecting our infrastructure. Yet, we spend/waste money on all sorts of programs that are not the federal government’s responsibility.

badattitude no place like home
05/28/18 11:54 am

The amount that it would take to harden our infrastructure is what Obama sent to Pakistan. 2 billion. A pittance for this government. Obama ignored the recommendations. Trump is going to fix it.

Krystina Let Freedom Reign
05/28/18 11:56 am

I know. Trump’s all over it. But, we lost 8 years with Obama. It could have been done by now. But, because of him, it will be years before we’re protected. Let’s hope nothing happens before it gets done. People don’t understand. This is a far greater and more imminent threat than Global Warming.

badattitude no place like home
05/28/18 11:58 am

You’re absolutely right. This is serious.

badattitude no place like home
05/28/18 11:58 am

In fact, can I right a poll based on your comment regarding global warming?

Krystina Let Freedom Reign
05/28/18 12:00 pm

You don’t need to mention my name though.

badattitude no place like home
05/28/18 12:03 pm

No of course not. I don’t think that is kosher anyway. I just published the poll.

shygal47 Florida east coast
05/28/18 6:44 am

Shoot - anybody that works at a power plant could have told you the same thing.
Don’t people ever think about infrastructure?

4boot LaTrineodeur, MN
05/28/18 12:58 am

Watched Dr. Pry’s interview with Mark Levin. His advice should be heeded. I have been aware of this potential problem for a long time and have taken measures to protect myself and others. Most are unaware of how our much our society’s vital needs are dependent upon electricity. Food, water, sewage and trash disposal, medical care, communications, etc. 90% fatalities are possible within a year.

All it would take to knock out the electric grid is one nuke detonated in space over the US. Many nations have the capability to deliver that nuke. It’s inconceivable that there should be any opposition to spending a few billion $ as an insurance policy to prevent such a potential nation wide catastrophe.

ctskapski x
05/27/18 9:51 pm

I think 90% is a gross overestimation.

However it should be protected, and would not be a waste of money.

badattitude no place like home
05/27/18 9:53 pm

Well, there would be no food or water. No transportation except horses, bicycles and feet. You would be instantly transported into the dark ages. Afghanistan is used to it. But we are not.

ctskapski x
05/27/18 10:08 pm

You're implying that we couldn't rebuild our infrastructure.
We certainly could.

It would be a lot more expensive than shielding, but nowhere near impossible, and work would begin on it (I assume) immediately.

There would certainly still be food for a while. I've got a can of beans in my cabinet that will keep until 2025.
And we might not be used to not having running water, but most households can get by if it's temporary, which it very likely would be. I'm sure the most important infrastructure would be handled first.

I'd estimate deaths around 40%, tops. That includes those on life-support or otherwise machine dependent, as well as a chunk of the elderly and otherwise infirm.

ctskapski x
05/27/18 10:09 pm

And the 40% is still being pretty dangerous.

Domino3 Abolish the ATF
05/27/18 10:41 pm

Idk. 90% sounds pretty reasonable. People can die of dehydration in two days and most amsericn don’t have that much water to keep them. Riots, looting, and killing each other over supplies would kill most of the nation within a week, then the rest has to figure out how to survive after.

badattitude no place like home
05/27/18 10:51 pm

It’s been nearly a year to rebuild Puerto Rico’s grid and it used nearly all the resources of the US. Imagine the entire country down.

ctskapski x
05/27/18 11:14 pm

Dehydration in the US, even without power, is a severe problem for the American Southwest, but not the entire country.
There are many bodies of water, and much wood with which to boil it.

It's a lot less convenient than a running tap, but it's not difficult.

The bigger cities might have it a lot tougher, but again those would be worked on the earliest, right after core infrastructure, which probably is actually shielded, honestly.

As far as PR, they have not used nearly all of our resources, they received about 1.5 billopn. We have much, much more in the way of resources

As of March, about 11% is without power, and getting power back on in PR was a lot harder than it would be here, because their infrastructure was already heavily outdated due to poor infrastructure financing and the PR debt crisis in general. It's a much different monster than the US homeland.

ctskapski x
05/27/18 11:17 pm

Moreover, with the hurricane, much of the infrastructure was totally wiped out.
That's not what Electromagnetic pulses do.

Much of the damage from EMPs come in the form of shortings, and frying of the delicate electrical connections.

Restoring infrastructure after an EMP wouldn't require laying all new cable, completely restoring things.

It would still require a lot of work and resources, but not as much.
Mostly replacement of circuitry and the major machinery (like transformers and whatnot)

badattitude no place like home
05/27/18 11:27 pm

You’re right. Survivalists would outlast everyone. But regular city folk would go fast. And you watched the video right, it’s not the power lines. It’s the giant transformers. They can’t make them very fast or move them easily. Especially if there’s no power or transportation.

ctskapski x
05/27/18 11:36 pm

Transportation would be solved quite easily, especially with many of the large transport vehicles being kind of outdated.
That being said, yes, like I said, it would only be major equipment that needed to be repaired (most would be able to be repaired, likely, although many replacements would be necessary, I'm sure.)
Still, that's much easier than PR, which needed both replacement of machinery as well as line replacement.

And people in cities would have it much harder.
But not impossibly so.

The biggest danger wouldn't be dehydration for them, by far.
It would be fire, which is bad, but I don't think it's anywhere near 90% of America dying bad, especially since large office buildings would be mostly non-functional until we can get the power back to them.

There's also the fact that people can leave the city during this period.
Many won't, but they certainly can, and the longer it lasts the more likely they will be to do so.

historylover Navy Seawolves
05/28/18 6:25 am

I saw a program a couple of years ago in which the expert said the big transformers are not even made in the United States anymore. Should we be dependent upon China for items necessary for our survival? No, but we are. Our worst enemy is truly ourselves, failing to recognize what is serious and taking the necessary precautions. The USA has managed to recover from its inability to face reality many times, but that doesn’t mean we’ll always be able to do so. What would have happened during WWII if most of our manufacturing had been shut down and shipped overseas to countries who want to see us collapse? One day, we are going to wake up—not only late but too late.

badattitude no place like home
05/28/18 7:33 am

Ct. I don’t see how transportation would be solved easily if there’s no power to pump gas or refine oil. Then no diesel to transport gas to the stations. It’s the domino effect.

ctskapski x
05/28/18 8:59 am

There is no way to pump anything without electricity.

Before electricity the concept of a pump was just totally unthinkable.

badattitude no place like home
05/28/18 9:57 am

Well, you’re right, I have solar on my house and a roll of romex to connect my well if shït goes down. And septic. I have horses, chickens goats and a big garden. But the rest of the city can’t do that. They will be dead in days.

ctskapski x
05/28/18 10:02 am

You severely underestimate the ability of human adaptation.
You have it a lot easier than them, but that doesn't mean they won't be able to adapt to the temporary conditions.

There will, of course, be some people inside and outside of cities who, when faced with disaster, will just collapse incapably, but even the most sheltered of people can figure out how not to die, if they need to.

So, again, 90% is a gross overestimation, probably intended to instill terror.
System hardening needs to be done, but 90% is just a ridiculous number.

Texas1 did not proofread
05/28/18 10:03 am

Transportation is dependent upon the electric grid, our food supply is dependent not only upon electric refrigeration, but also transportation. Even food that doesn’t need refrigeration, still need transportation. Very few people would be able to survive winter and even summer conditions. And even fewer posses the knowledge to sustain themselves from the wild even if it was possible. There would be a accumulation of the dead that would soon surpass the livings ability to dispose of, then come plages and such... It’s not actually hard to imagine, I mean how many people do you know that can safely process a squirrel? A fish? A cow?

ctskapski x
05/28/18 10:11 am

It is very unlikely that, with full Federal funding, and the full force of the armed forces, that it would last more than 1 year.

Puerto Rico had a paltry 1.5 billion and mostly volunteer work, as of March, and they went from about 70% without power to 11% in March. That's 6 months.

6 months in which the US has rather resisted helping, doing a very small amount of what we could.

And the transportation industry can function without the electrical grid if it needed to. It would be much less efficient, but efficiency would rise as power is restored.

It would be gravely unpleasant.
Many would die.
Not 90% of the population.

badattitude no place like home
05/28/18 10:14 am

I agree. But I still don’t know how transportation is going to work without fuel.

Texas1 did not proofread
05/28/18 10:24 am

Breck, given enough time, transportation could adapt. BUT how much time do you think we’d have? I’d say not enough to prevent mass casualties.

badattitude no place like home
05/28/18 10:31 am

Exactly. It would be really bad. Imagine the hungry hordes roaming the streets.

ctskapski x
05/28/18 10:31 am

Fuel can be pumped for official vehicles, or those deemed necessary for repairs.

Manual pumps exist.

ctskapski x
05/28/18 10:32 am

There would certainly be mass casualties.
Particularly in the old, the infirm and the reactionary.

Texas1 did not proofread
05/28/18 10:50 am

Manual pumps will only work until you empty the tank. What will refill those said tanks? I could get fuel from the unground tanks at the local gas station, but not only would I be confronted by an owner, but the mass of people wanting the fuel I could extract would be overwhelming. If you are thinking of tanks at refineries, there is also a finite supply there, those tanks would need to be replenished with what? Power generators would most likely be destroyed that could power the refinery process. Oil rigs that extract crude would also be powerless. Your manual pump idea only lasts so long as the fuel already made lasts.

Texas1 did not proofread
05/28/18 11:01 am

One thing I forgot about! What are you putting said fuel reserves into? Even though some think/believe a vehicles structure is a simple faraday cage, we don’t actually know for sure electronics would survive a natural or manmade EMP. I for one believe if something as rugged as a Morse code transmitter burst into flames during the Carrington Event, the fragile electronics in our vehicles don’t stand a chance. And don’t say diesel trucks don’t require electronics to run, most full mechanical diesel powered vehicles are long out of service now.

badattitude no place like home
05/28/18 11:56 am

You’re right about manual pumps. But I don’t think that the modern electronics of today’s cars would survive an EMP. Older Diesels probably would.

Texas1 did not proofread
05/28/18 1:33 pm

You need not make any distinction between modern cars and very early makes. American cars pre 1974 had point style ignition systems, and a set of points are almost exactly how Morse cost is transmitted, the same system that was devastated by the Carrington Event. And to my knowledge he last Diesel engines that used mechanical injection were about 1993. So your pool of viable Diesel engines is very limited, and you’d still have to start the engine without electricity, meaning no conventional starter. Ever tried to push start an engine with around 20:1 compression ratio? Truth of the matter to me is, we are unprepared and actually ignorant of what will work and what won’t. Most will not prepare and assume the government will take care of them, it’s not a lengthy search to find evidence that plan is not a good one. Even a self sustaining farm would be overrun with hoards of people trying to survive. It’s a bad bad bad scenario that has no perfect plan.

badattitude no place like home
05/28/18 1:36 pm

Wow. You’re right. It’s really serious.

Texas1 did not proofread
05/28/18 1:36 pm

I need to start proofreading...
*morse code

Texas1 did not proofread
05/28/18 1:47 pm

You could store spare electronics in a faraday cage, but obtaining fuel then becomes your problem.
If I did not become allergic to horses in my teen years, my backup plan would be horses.
While I don’t see the need to travel post EMP, and my horse allergy problem, I put steam power at the front of my plan if I were desperate enough to need to travel. I have the basic knowledge and the resources to create a steam engine, but not the experience, so that’s a gamble on my part. It all comes back to, we really don’t know what all we would be up against... Actually scary!

TrueAmerican7 I Am Galt.
05/27/18 9:49 pm

If the Fed has not already hardened their utilities (which I highly doubt), then we’re all screwed. This is one of few things I think the Fed should prioritize. Without national security, there is no nation.

proudGA New Jersey
05/27/18 9:29 pm

This is actually something I worry about

badattitude no place like home
05/27/18 9:35 pm

Seriously cheap to protect against.

badattitude no place like home
05/27/18 9:36 pm

Comparatively cheap

proudGA New Jersey
05/27/18 9:37 pm

Well so is asteroid deflection. Getting people invested is the problem