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ArrowFodder November 16th, 2019 11:27pm

We went from “quid pro quo” to the newest incarnation “bribery”. Pelosi’s application is backwards. Madison’s concern was that a foreign power might bribe a president with cash, titles etc in order to buy his loyalty not that he would offer a bribe.

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ArrowFodder ohio
11/16/19 4:28 pm

Mark Levin shreds Pelosi’s bogus bribery accusation against President Trump.

Let me explain something to Nancy Pelosi,” Levin said. “The word ‘bribery’ in the Constitution is right there in Madison’s notes [on the federal convention]. Their concern was that a foreign power might bribe a president with cash, with money, with titles, in order to buy his loyalty. It’s nothing to do with what they’re talking about in Ukraine and 2016; that’s not what they meant by bribery.”

“So she gets the word bribery wrong from a constitutional perspective, and she has no evidence,” Levin concluded. “She’s an idiot.”

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ArrowFodder ohio
11/16/19 4:29 pm

So she gets the word bribery wrong from a constitutional perspective, and she has no evidence,” Levin concluded. “She’s an idiot”

www.conservativereview.com/news/levin-shreds-pelosis-bogus-bribery-accusation-president-trump/

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Krystina Let Freedom Reign
11/16/19 4:52 pm

You may want to reread the poll.

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smart1
11/16/19 4:41 pm

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

Sadly the actual Constitution doesn’t agree with your contention.

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sjrez Cope Harder
11/16/19 5:05 pm

Trying to bribe someone else is illegal even if you fail.

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WorstGooEver Nuke the Hurricanes
11/16/19 5:15 pm

How about extortion for personal gain?

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Krystina Let Freedom Reign
11/16/19 5:17 pm

There was no trying. There was no bribe. There was no crime. Read the transcript for yourself. Stop listening to the propaganda media.

Dems poll tested to see which term would work better for elections between “quid pro quo,” “extortion” and “bribery.” Guess which won and why you’re now taking about bribery.
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BarryB Was it something I said
11/16/19 9:45 pm

But it’s still someone else reviewing an opinion talk show.

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ArrowFodder ohio
11/16/19 7:41 pm

That’s exactly right . Lots of smart people are hypnotized by the left wing media. I know a few in my wife’s family who fall into that category. As Scott Adams says very often they are watching a different movie . And yes, their opinion is literally being given to them .

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SuperAgain They lie, Get Over It
11/16/19 7:47 pm

You really don’t understand the multifaceted nature of bribery. It can be...
1. An “offer” meaning the attempt to pay someone off to get what you want.
2. The “giving” meaning the actual exchange of the ‘quid’ in expectation of receiving the ‘quo’ in return.
3. A “solicitation” meaning the attempt to ‘reverse’ the exchange, offering up something you know ‘they’ want in return for something you want.
4. The “receiving” meaning the second party becoming guilty of the crime by nature of accepting any of 1, 2, or 3 above.
5. It can also rise to ‘extortion’ when the solicitation is coercive via a threat, implied or real.

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SuperAgain They lie, Get Over It
11/16/19 7:50 pm

“Bribery constitutes a crime and both the offeror and the recipient can be criminally charged.” “Proof of bribery requires demonstrating a “quid pro quo” relationship in which the recipient directly alters behavior in exchange for the gift.” www.law.cornell.edu/wex/bribery#

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SuperAgain They lie, Get Over It
11/16/19 7:56 pm

Trump and his co-conspirators “offered” a prestigious White House visit in return for a Biden/Burisma investigation. — that’s committing an act Bribery.

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SuperAgain They lie, Get Over It
11/16/19 7:57 pm

Trump and his co-conspirators “solicited” a a Biden/Burisma investigation in return for releasing the US Military Aid. — that’s committing an act Bribery.

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SuperAgain They lie, Get Over It
11/16/19 8:00 pm

Trump and his co-conspirators “threatened” to withhold much-needed US Military Aid unless the Ukrainians provided a Biden/Burisma investigation. — that’s committing an act Bribery ...also known as Extortion.

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SuperAgain They lie, Get Over It
11/16/19 8:03 pm

“In fact, the Founders had a broader conception of bribery than what’s in the criminal code. Their understanding was derived from English law, under which bribery was understood as an officeholder’s abuse of the power of an office to obtain a private benefit rather than for the public interest. This definition not only encompasses Trump’s conduct—it practically defines it.”

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SuperAgain They lie, Get Over It
11/16/19 8:08 pm

Perhaps even bribery with a desired investigation into his political rivals in order to secure his loyalty to continued protection from Russia. Hint: it’s the case of the recipient soliciting the bribe!!!

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BarryB Was it something I said
11/16/19 6:06 pm

How can you argue with a top notch source like this. I mean a pseudo news story recapping a talk radio opinion show. That a first class news source right there.

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ArrowFodder ohio
11/16/19 6:34 pm

Ha ha . Krystina is right . That reference to Bribery in that part of the constitution is precisely the reference that Madison references . See notes below . A President can be impeached for accepting a bribe from a foreign power . A President is not impeached for engaging in foreign relations including asking for investigations into corruption in the other country

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ArrowFodder ohio
11/16/19 6:38 pm

WorstGoo . What is right there?

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RatBaby
11/17/19 8:23 am

"well they wrote bribery but this one letter from one of the guys that wrote it implies that they probably only meant receiving a bribe so bribing a foreign country is totally fine"

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RatBaby
11/17/19 8:24 am

Except the administration has already admitted that they were withholding the aid money to get them to investigate Biden.

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RatBaby
11/17/19 8:25 am

And of course, the on call legal scholar for Fox News is gonna say nothing trump ever does is illegal.

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ArrowFodder ohio
11/16/19 7:09 pm

Good point :). I wonder if the Democrats are even aware that they collectively started to change their terminology . The media persuasion is quite strong. People seem to be completely unaware of it

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ArrowFodder ohio
11/16/19 7:14 pm

His opinion actually is top notch , especially when it comes to the constitution...

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ArrowFodder ohio
11/16/19 7:14 pm

Mark Reed Levin (/ləˈvɪn/; born September 21, 1957) is an American lawyer, author, and radio personality. He is the host of syndicated radio show The Mark Levin Show, as well as Life, Liberty & Levin on Fox News. Levin worked in the administration of President Ronald Reagan and was a chief of staff for Attorney General Edwin Meese. He is chairman of the Landmark Legal Foundation, has authored seven books, and contributes commentary to various media outlets such as National Review Online. Since 2015, Levin has been editor-in-chief of the Conservative Review[4]

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ArrowFodder ohio
11/16/19 7:16 pm

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Levin

The wiki on Mark Levin who is a Lawyer among other thinks things

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Krystina Let Freedom Reign
11/16/19 7:26 pm

Most people don’t form their own opinions. They think they do, but what they actually do is believe what others tell them to think. There are very few independent thinkers around anymore.

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Krystina Let Freedom Reign
11/16/19 5:19 pm

I think that term came in second in the Dem’s poll testing. Better go with “bribe.” It won, so it’ll work better politically, which is the goal of this impeachment. There no other reason to bring someone up for impeachment when anyone who can read can see there’s no crime.

Read the transcript for yourself. Stop listening to the propaganda media.

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ArrowFodder ohio
11/16/19 7:31 pm

You might as well spell it out . Are you see something in the transcript that the rest of us don’t see ?

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lj74
11/16/19 5:35 pm

Either way, nothing.

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ConservativeD Libertarian in disguise
11/16/19 6:08 pm

What about racketeering and tax evasion and attempted murder? The fact that you have to throw bad words out there to try foreshadow people is why this is going to go down in history as the worst botched impeachment attempt in history.

.....

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ConservativeD Libertarian in disguise
11/16/19 6:08 pm

Convince - not foreshadow....

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WorstGooEver Nuke the Hurricanes
11/16/19 6:14 pm

I’ve read it. It’s right there.

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WorstGooEver Nuke the Hurricanes
11/16/19 6:14 pm

WH aides just testified as much as well.

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Robert0111 Oscar Romeo
11/20/19 2:01 pm

Definition

Corrupt solicitation, acceptance, or transfer of value in exchange for official action.

Overview

Bribery refers to the offering, giving, soliciting, or receiving of any item of value as a means of influencing the actions of an individual holding a public or legal duty. This type of action results in matters that should be handled objectively being handled in a manner best suiting the private interests of the decision maker. Bribery constitutes a crime and both the offeror and the recipient can be criminally charged.
Proof of bribery requires demonstrating a “quid pro quo” relationship in which the recipient directly alters behavior in exchange for the gift. Because the relationship does not occur directly enough, campaign donations from corporations or individuals to political candidates do not constitute bribery. Another element of proving bribery includes proving intent to influence the discharging of another’s official duties. Some statutes also require proof that both

Robert0111 Oscar Romeo
11/20/19 2:03 pm

parties understand and agree to the arrangement. Attempts to bribe exist at common law and under the Model Penal Code, and often, the punishment for attempted bribery and completed bribery are identical. Solicitation of a bribe also constitutes a crime and is completed regardless of whether the solicitation results in the receipt of a valuable gift. Economists consider bribery to negatively impact economic growth because it encouraged rent seeking behavior. Rent seeking behavior refers to an individual’s or corporation’s attempt to illicitly influence the open market in order to provide that individual or corporation with a disproportionate amount of wealth. Such an environment results in a sub-optimal allocation of resources, which results in depressed economic growth.
Violators may be prosecuted under federal statute 18 U.S.C. 201 - Bribery.

ArrowFodder ohio
11/17/19 4:13 am

So we’ve gone over this a lot now, I think it was with you in another poll. Not sure . But in any case : 1) The facts so far show that there is no linkage between Aid to Ukraine and any actions requested by Ukraine. Taylor testified that in conversations with Zelenskiy there was no linkage neither was there linkage in the transcript

ArrowFodder ohio
11/17/19 4:15 am

2) if there were linkage , which there wasn’t , the requested investigation was in the interests of the United States as it is about the nature of our elections in 2016. If we care about Russian interference then we need to care about potential Ukrainian interference as well.

ArrowFodder ohio
11/16/19 8:00 pm

Nope. The impeachable offense bribery is very specific and Madison elaborates on what is in view. It is a narrow definition and with good reason.

ArrowFodder ohio
11/16/19 8:03 pm

in Madison’s notes [on the federal convention] his concern was that a foreign power might bribe a president with cash, with money, with titles, in order to buy his loyalty.

ArrowFodder ohio
11/17/19 4:23 am

So it’s clear that the request for the investigation can not be legally demonstrated to be for personal gain . It’s not . The President is acting in his function in the interests of the United States . Is Hunter Biden and Biden in the mix ? Maybe but it’s not certain . If this is beneficial to Trump personally than that can only happen if The Biden’s of guilty of something. So this is a bad way to try to protect the Democrat front runner . But let’s say the Biden’s are guilty , that is after the fact. There is no way that Trump can predict the future which is the only way this comes close to being beneficial personally. So if after the investigation the Biden’s come out guilty it’s merely a side effect into a legitimate investigation into corruption in Ukraine that is also about the 2016 election

ArrowFodder ohio
11/17/19 4:29 am

And finally the legal opinions you cited are disputed. Dershowitz doesn’t see a case for impeachment, not bribery etc . Neither does Mark Levin who is also a legal scholar. The Kind of Bribery in the constitution is of the President of Ukraine offered a bribe to the President , to personally benefit Trump in exchange for changing foreign policy . None of that is in evidence.

ArrowFodder ohio
11/17/19 4:29 am

youtu.be/ayYZNiMFEsI

Dershowitz talks about the “non” case for impeachment. It’s a recent discussion

Zod Above Pugetropolis
11/17/19 7:53 am

... and that, ladies and gentlemen, is why it is not considered a crime to offer a bribe, it is only a crime to accept one. Nowhere.