Show of HandsShow of Hands

ShakaBrah November 10th, 2017 2:19am

The pastor of the First Baptist Church Sutherland Sprungs, TX), plans to demolish the church and make it a memorial for the horrific attack. Good plan?

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susanr Colorado
11/09/17 9:42 pm

As far as I'm concerned, whatever they are most comfortable with (or more realistically, least uncomfortable with) is OK. I don't know about the church hierarchy, but that's their business.

I'm tempted to encourage them to wait a bit before deciding to demolish it, to see if they feel the same way in a month or three (just in case they later regret having done that, for some reason), except that the town is so darned small, I can't imagine there's any way they can avoid having to look at it all the time, in the meanwhile.

It just makes your heart ache to even think about having to think about that, and then to do it. And then to look at the empty space afterward.

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TomLaney1 Jesus is Lord
11/11/17 8:45 pm

It would do more good and make a far better statement as a living, growing, active church.

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TomLaney1 Jesus is Lord
11/11/17 10:11 pm

Of course; I agree. But the people outside of that congregation see the church as the building. And when the church is torn down after a tragedy, it’s like an admission of defeat. It seems like it would be a better witness to “man up“ and completely refurbish the inside, until it’s brand-spanking new. They could even do a little remodeling, so that it doesn’t look identical to what they had before. That should solve the problem of anyone having bad memories from the sight of the sanctuary.

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TomLaney1 Jesus is Lord
11/11/17 8:47 pm

That’s so sad. See my comments above. I certainly understand yours, but there’s another side to this…

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/11/17 10:16 pm

I see what you mean. You’re basically saying it would be a better witness if they don’t demolish it. I can see that reasoning, as well.

I’m just glad I’m not having to make a decision like this!

I can’t imagine what this pastor is going through. I would imagine that besides his own grief of losing his teenaged daughter, plus 1/4 his church members, he is probably dealing with some guilt for not being there when it happened. And he’s probably going to have to officiate most, if not all the funerals, which is NOT going to be easy.

Hubby has officiated at his mother’s, father’s, brother’s, & niece’s funerals, but I don’t know if even he could officiate one of our children’s funerals. I pray to God he never has to face that!

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ShakaBrah California
11/10/17 5:06 pm

The monument isn't to remember the shooter, it's to remember the victims. I see where you're going, but would why do you think we have war monuments?

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historylover
11/09/17 9:16 pm

If it is really a Baptist Church, won't the deacons make that decision? A Baptist pastor can recommend.

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susanr Colorado
11/11/17 4:55 pm

I did do a little poking around, once I started thinking about it today, and I found a couple of interesting articles, and a third one I haven't started reading yet. They all describe how various sites of tragedies have been handled after the fact, including some rather innovative purposes proposed for some of them, most of which didn't come to fruition - but could.

One rather poignant example of preservation rather than demolition is that of a Sikh temple. I'll describe what was done there, but first here are the 3 articles for anyone interested. (I've read just the first 2 so far, but the 3 looks good too.)

www.pbs.org/independentlens/blog/healing-places-rebuilding-after-a-community-tragedy/

www.thedailybeast.com/is-there-any-such-thing-as-an-evil-building-why-we-should-think-twice-before-razing-houses-of-horror

www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/rebuilding-violent-places

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/11/17 3:20 pm

So you disagree with the 9/11 memorial? That is set aside so that people can go and remember all those we lost that day? I do NOT see that as some monument to terrorists. Do YOU?

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/11/17 3:22 pm

Susan, if 9 members of your family died in a room, and their blood was splattered all over the room, would you EVER be able to set foot in that room again, especially if you were there, witnessing them and all your friends being slaughtered?

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susanr Colorado
11/11/17 5:07 pm

Here's what the people at the Sikh temple did, after it was attacked in 2012 (from the PBS article):

"After a white supremacist opened fire in a Sikh temple in Oak Creek, Wis., in August, killing six people and injuring four, temple officials held a purifying ceremony and removed bloodstained carpeting, repaired shattered windows and painted over gunfire-scarred walls.

"But they left one reminder of the violence — a dime-size bullet hole in the door jamb leading to the prayer room. The hole is now marked with a small gold plate engraved with 'We Are One. 8-5-12.'

"'It frames the wound,' Pardeep Kaleka, son of former temple president Satwant Singh Kaleka, who died in the massacre, said recently. 'The wound of our community, the wound of our family, the wound of our society.'"

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/11/17 3:23 pm

No, this would be something the entire church would have to vote for, if they’re a typical Southern Baptist Church.

Alcerus fascist
11/10/17 6:58 pm

I'm not saying we shouldn't have war memorials. I'm saying that people who could be a mass shooter in the future would go: "oh look, I'll be remembered forever just like I wanted. They're going to create a memorial to the event which will make people know my name forever."

War memorials wouldn't make individuals want to start a war, but it could make a soldier want to fight harder so they could be remembered. I don't know, I just don't like the idea of showing the bad guys that they got to us, spiritually

susanr Colorado
11/11/17 5:10 pm

I'm wondering... What would it feel like to walk into a *new* building, built on the site of such a horrible tragedy (either the church in Texas, or the temple in Wisconsin, or for that matter any of the others in those articles or any you can imagine) if you were one of the survivors who had experienced the event, or maybe even just lived nearby? I suspect I would still be *fully* aware of the tragedy that had occurred there.

I'm really not sure that a new structure built on the site would make much difference.

But I can't know for sure.

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Alcerus fascist
11/11/17 8:25 pm

Look, I really don't want to lose your respect over this issue. And I don't want to have any hard feelings here. But I've honestly lost enough loved ones and people in my life that I truly cared about (and as a narcissistic person that list is extremely short). People dying has a very minimal effect on my feelings, I don't want to talk about this subject anymore

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/11/17 3:30 pm

According to the article, it will probably pass.

“But repairing the bullet-riddled church had little support among his surviving parishioners, Pomeroy told the Wall Street Journal.
"There’s too many that do not want to go back in there," he said.”

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/11/17 8:27 pm

Fair enough, Alcerus. Thanks for remaining respectful and civil. Have a good evening!

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/11/17 5:17 pm

I’m too tired to read it all tonight, Susan, but didn’t want to leave you hanging. I’ll try to come back tomorrow. That last comment you made might be right, though. They might have to sell the property and move somewhere else. I’m sure all that will be talked about in their business meetings.

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/11/17 3:35 pm

Thanks, 3M. I think this is a wonderful idea. I can’t imagine EVER stepping foot in a building in which 26 of my family members and friends (and additionally, they were brothers & sisters in Christ) were murdered in cold blood. That’s about 1/4 of their congregation!

Of course, in a Southern Baptist church, the pastor can’t just decide to do this, as this article makes it look. It will have to be voted on by the congregation.

But according to what I read, it will probably pass a vote, which will be no surprise. I don’t think anyone would want to relive THAT ever time they go to worship! Talk about PTSD! From the article:

“But repairing the bullet-riddled church had little support among his surviving parishioners, Pomeroy told the Wall Street Journal.
"There’s too many that do not want to go back in there," he said.”

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Harry3603 Tampa Bay Florida.
11/10/17 3:43 am

The Amish of Pennsylvania did the same thing, after a nutcase murdered several young girls in their church.

Alcerus fascist
11/11/17 7:40 pm

I think it would have better to show our enemies that no matter what they throw at us, we move on unfazed. The goal of terrorism is to inspire long lasting fear of the terrorist group. I don't have an opinion on what should have been built there, because I don't live in New York. It's just my thoughts that people who do terrible things want to be remembered forever, and creating a memorial does exactly that.

Harry3603 Tampa Bay Florida.
11/10/17 3:45 am

He was not a member of their community, but some kind of neighbor.

missmorganmarie ...
11/11/17 2:46 pm

ShakaBrah asked:
11/10/2017
The pastor of the First Baptist Church Sutherland Sprungs, TX), plans to demolish the church and make it a memorial for the horrific attack. Good plan?

Alcerus fascist
11/10/17 1:41 pm

Bad idea. I'd say a lot mass shooters *want* to be remembered forever, to make a permanent mark on society that they couldn't do through honorable means. We shouldn't put up monuments to their success.

Liberty 4,032,064
11/09/17 8:56 pm

It’s the church’s building, so whatever they want it is a good idea.

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/11/17 7:44 pm

So you ARE saying that you believe the 9/11 memorial is memorializing the terrorists?

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/11/17 8:56 pm

Thanks, Tom. But I don’t see the BUILDING as the church. The church is the people who meet together IN the building. So they are a growing, active church no matter what their building looks like or which building they’re in, imho.

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susanr Colorado
11/11/17 4:18 pm

I have no idea, 4JC. I've never been there. I can certainly *imagine* how I would feel initially, but I know that I can't predict how I would feel about it after I'd gotten even a little distance in time from the event.

All I expressed was a small, vague wish that they'd wait a short while, and only because once a place has been demolished, that act can't be changed. I don't see anything wrong with expressing the hope that they made *sure* that's what they wanted to do before it was too late. Just in case.

*You* may sure how *you* would feel, but I don't know that any of us can speak for everyone.

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Alcerus fascist
11/11/17 7:47 pm

No I'm not. I'm saying that it's an admission of defeat.

Alcerus fascist
11/11/17 7:50 pm

But that's not really what my point was. My point was that instead of metaphorically sitting in the corner crying about something, we should stand with our heads held high, thus negating the goals of the terrorists. If we show weakness, the terrorists win.

Jazzy5 USA
11/13/17 10:45 am

I am conflicted on this, but I do think it should be a living memorial to the lives lost..

4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/11/17 4:37 pm

Well, the article said most of them felt that way, is all.

I would think they would want to get rid of it as soon as possible, so they don’t have to keep looking at it.

Also, this is a small church, so it could be that they don’t have much land, and have to tear it down to make room for a new church building to be built.

At any rate, it will have to be voted on by the congregation.

Sorry if it seemed like I was being defensive, or jumping you. Didn’t mean to come across that way! I think I was working on emotions from other people in this poll and didn’t mean to transfer that to you! So sorry!

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susanr Colorado
11/11/17 4:45 pm

Well, that's a good part of my point, that they feel that way *now* after it has just happened. I think that's the most natural feeling, immediately afterward.

But I tend to agree with you *in this case,* I think the answer for a town as small as the one where this tragedy occurred will likely be demolition, rebuilding, and a memorial of some kind. Primarily because of limited space and resources, and partly because the small number of people involved may not find an alternative.

There are, however, some alternatives.

I hadn't really thought about all this very much before; my initial comment was just my gut reaction, and my sense of sadness about things that cannot be undone. Things one wishes one had done differently. Things I've wished I had thought about, talked to others about, contemplated, before making an irreversible decision.

But in reality, they probably won't regret it at all.

However...

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/11/17 8:00 pm

Well, I think these Christians have made it clear that they’re not beaten, that their faith is still strong, etc.

But let me ask you this—if 9 members of your family and 16 other friends were murdered in front of your eyes, do you think you wouldn’t be crying? Do you think that you would love to continue to meet in the same room in which they were slaughtered? This was 1/4 of their total congregation that was taken out.

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4JC Christian Pastors Wife
11/11/17 8:01 pm

I disagree about it being an admission of defeat. I think it shows reverence for those that died at 9/11. Do you realize that there are bodies still buried, that they never found, under the 9/11 memorial? Do you think it would’ve been respectful of those bodies to build ANYTHING else above them?

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