Show of Hands

Separation of church and state is not built into "western culture". Just look at the history of the Catholic church. Look at what christian nationalists are pushing for right now.

Pam, I just remembered some info you might find interesting (bc you ref. oppression).

The percentage of Muslim women who don’t want to be Muslim is very high, 2x higher than men. Best I can figure with the limited data available, it’s roughly 70- to 80% of Muslim women overall, with the percentages skewing highest in the most oppressive Islamic nations.

But get this: being trapped in this “religion” is common *even* in the U.S. According to Pew (2024), 75-80% of those who want out hide thier apostasy due to fear of shunning, violence, or other repercussions.

At the same time, 23-24% are leaving Islam when they reach adulthood (most, secretly), so Islam is not doing well at retention in America.

Too bad it retains any, though, because inevitably, some of them decide to take the text as literally as it commands them to.

Let us celebrate that modern advance.

I’m no atheist. And yes, extremism - evangelicals and fundamentalists - in any religion, are dangerous to society.

Minor point, but exactly none of the countries immediately surrounding Israel is a theocracy.

I understand, Pam. I don’t know the population you’re around, but the stricter they adhere to Islam, the less you’re likely to like them. The ideology forbids Muslims to be friends with unbelievers, and continued hatred is encouraged (“animosity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone”). Lying to non-believers via a concept called taqiyya is often also used far more liberally than claimed (which means they can and do fake friendships with non-believers). And so on.

IMHO, this is an ideology Americans need to learn about. From what I’ve seen, westerners have too many misconceptions and ignorance surrounding it and, in this case, that ignorance could be dangerous for all of us.

To that end, I suggest everyone research the ideology. The video I posted above is a great start.

Are we counting “thou shalt not do murder?”

The question is about Islam, not Catholisism.

Third, “Hence, why it so often produces theocracies.”
This is a non sequitur. The existence of religious law does not explain political outcomes. What explains the rise of theocracies is:
• Colonial destruction of secular nationalist movements
• Western-backed dictatorships crushing leftist alternatives
• Cold War sponsorship of religious forces as bulwarks against socialism
• Economic immiseration that makes religious identity a vehicle of resistance

Iran did not become a theocracy because Islam “naturally” leads there; it became one after a U.S.-backed coup destroyed a secular democratic government and decades of repression wiped out left alternatives. History matters. Power relations matter. Theology alone explains nothing.

Fourth, “Is this compatible with Western culture?”
This question is meaningless unless you define “Western culture.” The West itself:
• Had state churches for centuries
• Used biblical law to regulate sex, dress, and family
• Burned heretics
• Criminalized blasphemy
• Still invokes God in state rituals

If by “Western culture” you mean liberal capitalism, then the real question is not cultural compatibility but political utility. Western powers have shown themselves perfectly willing to ally with religious states - Islamic or otherwise - whenever it serves imperial interests.

Well, duh. It’s in the name.

All you’ve done is prove my point with something you *thought* sounded profound.

As I keep saying, there's a world of difference between Muslims (ppl of faith) and Islamists (totalitarians who believe everyone must convert or die)

I personally am a Muslim not an Islamist.

Israel certainly blends religious identity and state power in ways that challenge liberal secularism. But that doesn’t make it a theocracy in the same sense as states governed by divine law.

What’s interesting is how comfortable many people are with religious influence when it comes from familiar traditions, while calling it incompatible or dangerous when it doesn’t. That selective standard is worth examining.

Western culture? How about little things we take for granted, like women being able to walk around free and not having to endure beatings by her husband that Islam condones, or gays being able to walk hand in hand in public without being beaten, etc.?Those are just a couple of examples.

Then there’s all the hate against non-Muslims that the text promotes throughout. How do you defend all the hateful verses? How do they fit in with western culture? How do you peacefully live and practice your “religion” among those the text instructs you to hate, war with, and enslave? And how do those people live peacefully with you, knowing what the ideology instructs?

Lack of separation is the clear goal of the Christian Nationalist movement and the current administration.

Whoever subjugates women and in some cases, forces them to wear face coverings and horrid clothes. My daughter is at Penn State U and says my attitude doesn’t fly for the majority of Muslims/Islamists. I’m trying hard to blunt my instinctive, its ‘them’ response. Progressive is slow. I’m not sure if I’m being bamboozled or not, so for now, I don’t go ranting, but my overall opinion of the ‘group’, yes, ‘them’, is not good.

Are you? The question has absolutely nothing to do with Catholicism.

Nor does it have anything to do with Christian nationalists. Nor does it ask whether separation is bake in. The question is about the ideology of Islam and its compatibility or lack of compatibility with western culture.

No, you just don’t want to address what the text promotes.

No.

I don't believe in forcing Shariah Law on ppl (though Shariah only applies to Muslims)

I don't care what religion others are. No one is my "enemy" because they're a different religion. If they want to follow a false religion and end up in Hell or Outer Darkness that's up to them.

Learn about moderate Muslims and Islam before making ignorant statements like that.

Mark, Christians and other minorities face discrimination and incidents fairly regularly (several hundred a year), but it’s mostly low-level stuff, like church attacks and mob violence, not full-blown Allahu Akbar rampages. Last one of those was a suicide bombing three years ago. According to what I learned in my Indonesian dive (thanks for spurring me Ody—it’s been interesting), the authorities catch most before they happen (usually 3-7 a year).

Total aside tidbit I learned (just because it’s interesting) is that they have full-blown Sharia in one of the Indonesian provinces, and they do public flogging and canings for drinking, adultery, gambling, gay sex, etc. They even have morality patrols called Walayatul Hisbah.

What a way to live. I think I’d die, actually. LoL.

I know, from a Christian who's a former Indonesian, of deadly Muslim attacks on Christians there. Anyone know if that’s still happening?

sID … pathetic, but that appears to be the best you’ve got.

Ok. So why are you defending the most extreme fundamentalists of all? The only ones that I know of that vow to kill anyone who doesn’t convert.

We've benefited from living in a secular nation.

Yes. Living in a Islamic country would be miserable.

I thought that you were an atheist who didn’t like fundamentalist religions, like seventh day adventists and such.

I’m comfortable with disagreement here, but I want to be clear about the basis for mine.

I’ve read widely on Islamic history, political Islam, and the Middle East, and while I don’t claim expertise, my view isn’t coming from ignorance or caricature. It’s coming from comparative analysis.

My point isn’t that Islam and Christianity are the same, or that all Muslim societies function identically. It’s that religious systems—any of them—can and do become politically dominant when aligned with state power, and that compatibility with liberal democracy varies by interpretation, culture, and institutional design.

We tend to recognize that complexity when discussing Christianity’s role in Western governance, but flatten it when discussing Islam. That asymmetry is what I’m pushing back on.

In Britain, wife-beating was legal until 1891.
In the United States, sodomy laws jailed gay people into the 1970s.
In France, women needed a husband’s permission to work until 1965.
Europe burned tens of thousands of women as witches, enslaved Africa and the Americas, and justified it all with Christian scripture.

Those practices didn’t end because the Bible softened. They ended because workers, women, and dissidents forced secular law on ruling elites.

Now you blame Islam for abuses that appear where states are poor, authoritarian, and wrecked by war, wars imposed largely by Western powers. The West overthrew secular governments in Iran, Egypt, Afghanistan, and elsewhere, armed religious extremists, then points to the outcome and says, “See? Their culture.”

Scriptures don’t run societies. Power does.
And Western power has produced more dead civilians, more dictators, and more social collapse than any holy book ever did

Ate you slow?

Are*

War and coupes directly affect today’s political landscape. Thinking otherwise would be stupid. If criticizing the US means you have to exile the critic, that just proves you have a weak argument.

The poll mashes together separate claims that don’t logically connect, then treats the confusion as a conclusion.

Yeah, I was told that if I voted for Trump I would be issued a handmaid. It’s been almost a year and still not handmaid. I was duped.