Show of Hands

You have the right to a lawyer. So you’re saying if we got rid of that, lawyers would be cheaper? Doesn’t make any sense

You already do. Healthcare is the number one cause of bankruptcy. And normal people living pay check to pay check become homeless because of one emergency. And then you’re paying for their welfare, cleaning up the streets, incentivizing crime and drug use, and flooding the emergency rooms.

Access is a right. HC is not

And be careful - when you get your rights from a government they can also take it away

I don’t remember ever seeing healthcare in the Bill Of Rights. 🤔

Rights don’t come from government.

Cecacejr, it is implied in the 9th amendment. But gunsight is right, rights don't come from the government, we are born with them. The 9th amendment is extremely important but unfortunately is not taken seriously. The bill of rights is not an exhaustive list of rights and just because something may not explicitly be listed in the constitution does not mean the government is free to take that right from us. That's why the government needs to stop making it so much harder and more expensive for most people to get healthcare.

False. You have no right to the expertise time or resources of others.

Access to HC is a right

The 9th amendment does NOT apply and your reasoning is flawed

Your right to vote requires poll workers, so you don’t have a right to vote. Isn’t that right?

"The 9th amendment does NOT apply and your reasoning is flawed"

Ozzy, I think we agree but you just misinterpreted what I said. The 9th amendment implies that the government cannot take away healthcare from us. I agree that it doesn't mean someone should be forced to provide or pay for my healthcare. It just means the government should not stop me from seeking the healthcare that I see fit for myself.

False. Medicaid takes over if they are poor

I will give you the right to access healthcare without any discrimination.

Odysseyus the wealthy already pay a majority of their taxes, but apparently they don't in the fantasy you live in. Stop pretending like its not incompetent voters like yourself and politicians catering to people like you, that created the problem.

It's quite worrying that you would rather have more government involvement, which is what got us into the mess in the first place, instead of advocating for things like deregulation, more insurance options, not forcing drug companies to spend billions to get minor things approved, and getting rid of the government created shortage of doctors and healthcare workers.

Great points

Just a couple of facts for you to ponder

We pay twice as much for healthcare as other comparable countries in the world.

Let me repeat that. We pay double what other comparable nations pay for healthcare.

And yet, our life expectancy is 4 years shorter than other comparable countries.

Let me repeat that. Our lives are cut short by 4 years compared to other comparable nations in the world.

Put everything else aside.

We have screwed the pooch when it comes to healthcare in America.

We have double to triple the obesity rate of most first world countries, by far the highest opioid use, above average alcohol abuse, the highest traffic injury and death rate of any first world country. Of course our medical expenses are going to be high. Then add a severe doctor and medical provider shortage caused by the government, the US healthcare system essentially both paying for and subsidizing all medical indication for the rest of the world, extreme regulations on essentially all treatments and medical advances, plus the government subsidizing most necessary medical treatments.

And your solution is more government 😂

*all medical innovation for the rest of the world

“We have double to triple the obesity rate of most first world countries”

Blame the corporate food giants. At least MAHA is helping. Nobody else did. Unless you want to include Michelle 😆

“highest opioid use”

Thank the drug traffickers. It’s been cut drastically. Thanks uncle Donald

“above average alcohol abuse”.

Nothing compares to many other countries.

You also don't take into account that universal healthcare did not reduce overall healthcare expenditures in other countries. It severely increased healthcare spending in those countries as well, and those countries didn't even suffer from all of America's additional problems. If we had government forced universal healthcare, it would 100% cause less medical freedom, plus a combination of shortages and even more increases to medical expenses.

You gotta love Americans

We pay double

We die sooner

And, we make excuses for ourselves

It’s no wonder the rest of the world just laughs at our stupidity.

I'm not making any excuses. I'm just the messenger. You are the equivalent of a flat earther when it comes to your understanding of economics and human motives.

People with your cavemen understanding of economics, with the damage caused by their ignorance compounded by the belief that the government is the solution to everything, are completely at fault.

70% tax does not equal cheaper healthcare.

The majority of countries who have universal, or single payer healthcare systems still have private insurance as an option. If you want to get bent over by an insurance company, you still can.

The US has a lower tax burden than Europe or Japan for example, but we have no public healthcare, nearly zero public transportation outside of a few major cities, crumbling infrastructure, much higher crime rates, more environmental pollution, etc.

So, is your personal greed worth living in a comparative shithole? You be the judge.

Gunsight, the tax burden as a percent of income is significantly higher while the GDP per capita is significantly lower in the countries you mention. You'll get bent over by the government in both America and those other countries. At least I'm richer, still have a little more freedom, and in a place that still innovates, in America. Plus I live in a culture where there are less people trying desperately to leech off others.

The GDP does not matter, I can’t possibly think of a more useless statistic to measure a nation’s well being. Clean, high trust society > GDP

You live in a society with over 20 million illegals leaching off of you by the way.

Saying GDP doesn't matter is like saying torque and horsepower don't matter when trying to see how fast a car is.

Some illegals are leaching off of us, but a lot are way more productive and beneficial to the economy than many Americans who are leaching off the welfare state.

"Clean, high trust society > GDP"

My neighbor could send me to jail for posting offensive memes in many parts of europe 😂. You want me to trust those idiots?

I will give you the right to access healthcare without any discrimination.

Slaves?! They chose their profession, freely.

Correct, as did doctors. Thats the point. Some people will say the right to healthcare makes doctors into slaves, but by that logic policemen, firefighters, teachers, etc… are slaves

It’s a service. Can you force someone to care for you? What if it’s a right? The only one that has to care for you is your mother.

Proof our healthcare is shit when you can confidently compare your mother to the health care system

You should have the right to get healthcare from an unlicensed source. You should have the right to import medications from other countries. You should have the right to practice medicine without a license.

These would all make healthcare cheaper.

Rights come from God/Creator/Your humanity. They are not determined by government because what the government provides, the government can take away.

God can also take away.
Poor comparison.

“God can also take away.”

You’re an atheist. What are you worried about?

Unless you think the government is god that can take your god given rights away.

Looks like AI

How is that single payer working in Canada?

You should have the right to get healthcare from an unlicensed source. You should have the right to import medications from other countries. You should have the right to practice medicine without a license.

These would all make healthcare cheaper.

For clarity Im not saying I dont think ppl should get healthcare. If I had a magic wand for universal healthcare that worked perfectly, Id wave it.

To a degree Im playing devil’s advocate, bc every time this topic comes up it devolves into everything is free vs the current system and I dont think either work.

The issue is that your rights were taken from you to prop up the medical monopoly.

There is absolutely no valid reason that it is illegal for a trained professional to put stitches into a clean cut, but it is illegal.

There is absolutely no valid reason that someone can’t bring medication into the US from other first world countries, but it is illegal.

There is absolutely no valid reason that a trained medic can help people while in the military, but helping the exact same members out of the military is illegal.

My second post was not a response to you, you just happen to respond while I was typing it.

I dont disagree with you in theory.

I think allowing unlicensed individuals render care may open the door to ppl being taken advantage of or excluded from receiving formal care if the initial care is botched…but ultimately I side on personal freedom, and if someone wants to go to someone outside of the traditional system, they should be free to do so.

You should have the right to get healthcare from an unlicensed source. You should have the right to import medications from other countries. You should have the right to practice medicine without a license.

These would all make healthcare cheaper.

The problem is many people use that as a reason why you should pay more taxes for it.

Art reflects the artist's (perception of) reality

Yo can either refer to a service provided by others as a right, or you can oppose slavery. But you can’t do both.

And either way, you’ll have to refer to something other than “healthcare” as that is an industry comprised of many different products and services. You’ll have to state which one(s) specifically you have a right to force others to provide for you.

You can meaningfully address an issue that is literally life and death for millions of innocent people, or you can choose to be pedantic and smug. You can’t do both.


And you didn’t address any of the actual points I made.

You should have the right to get healthcare from an unlicensed source. You should have the right to import medications from other countries. You should have the right to practice medicine without a license.

These would all make healthcare cheaper.

I see you chose the latter. I guess good job for trying to copy the format, though 🤷🏼‍♂️

Referring to an industry as a right is the opposite of seriously addressing anything.

Thinking things should be industries that should be public goods is the opposite of serious conversation.


Answer a question for me.

If your house was broken into while you are away and you call the police to document the break in, did you just engage in slavery?

Your rights were taken away in order to establish a medical monopoly.

There is no “should be.” That’s what it is. You can say that gravity should push things up rather than pull them down, but it would be a silly and worthless discussion.

No to your question. Calling the police is a separate and unrelated thing to claiming you have a right to anyone else’s services.

Yet you have a right to police services.



And do you think industries exist in nature, like gravity? You think the moon has industry? Or mars?

Buck, licenses exist to ensure that people practicing medicine actually know what they are doing.

Ok, so why would a fully qualified Army Medic is authorized to treat fellow soldiers while in the military, but it is illegal to do so one day after discharge? Did they suddenly become unqualified or is there a justification that has nothing to do with qualifications?

If a nurse is off duty, it is illegal for them to put stitches in someone’s arm? How is being off duty impacting their qualifications?

And why would the government prevent civilians from purchasing medication from other first world countries? How is that related to qualifications?

It seems to me the common justification is money, not skill.

If you want to argue that licensing should be transferable between military and civilian practice, or that nurses should be able to treat emergency cases off the clock, ok, those are perfectly reasonable positions. As you preSented it, it sounds like you think I should be able to just go out and open a medical practice and start treating people despite having only an average man-on-the-street level knowledge of medicine. Is that your position?

Yep.

As long as you are not misrepresenting your qualifications the risk is much better mitigated through required disclosure and not licensing.

Your car mechanic is not licensed. How do you know if they are qualified? If I told you that licensing every mechanic would ensure they were competent, but your bill would increase by 1000%, is it worth it?

And I’m sure you will bring up that your life is on the line, but is it? How often are stitches fatal? How about casting a broken arm? If those are safe, why not only license for critical care like heart surgery? Why not have two tiers of medicine?

You have a right to a fair trial which requires judges and courts.

Teachers must be slaves because kids have a right to an education too. lol such a stupid take 😆

My wife’s friend died of an infection she got from a port that was put in. Things like that CAN be fatal and probably would be more often if not for licensing.

Was the port put in by a licensed professional?

Yes.

So the license is not foolproof. What neither of us knows is if the risk would increase more than the current financial risk that prevents some from receiving any care at all.

So what I am in favor of is universal coverage, so there is no one that doesn’t receive care because they can’t afford it.

My idea can happen with or without your idea. What do you think about my idea?

“Yet you have a right to police services.”

No, you don’t.

Liberty, so if you call them you are engaging in slavery then.

Buck, there can probably be a decent argument made for two teared licensing. But not doing away with licensing all together.

What do you think of universal coverage?

No, obviously not. You’re just being silly and obtuse.

I would need to understand how the government would want to implement universal coverage. Do you want more money to implement it?

Basically, taxes would go up but it would replace the premiums you already pay if you have insurance. Net outcome for most people is more money in your pocket and better, more secure coverage.

Liberty, if you have a right to call them police and that isn’t slavery then saying you have a right to go to the doctor isn’t slavery either.

“Basically, taxes would go up but it would replace the premiums you already pay if you have insurance. Net outcome for most people is more money in your pocket and better, more secure coverage.”

Then no.

The US already spends more than other first world country on healthcare per patient. If the argument is that giving the government even more money will save me money is obviously foolish from the get go.

www.citizen.org/news/fact-check-medicare-for-all-would-save-the-u-s-trillions-public-option-would-leave-millions-uninsured-not-garner-savings/

Great.

They should do it with the money they already receive. Paying more in the hope that it will save money does not make sense.

If that’s too hard, do it for one state and prove it works.

Buck, I think you are misunderstanding the argument you are making. Yes, se do spend more per capita than any other country on healthcare. That isn’t government spending, that is ALL healthcare spending. Canada spends half per capita what we spend and covers everyone. Because they don’t have unnecessary middlemen pulling profits out of the system. The fact that we spend so much already is an argument FOR universal healthcare, not against.

I agree