Show of Hands

Third, “Hence, why it so often produces theocracies.”
This is a non sequitur. The existence of religious law does not explain political outcomes. What explains the rise of theocracies is:
• Colonial destruction of secular nationalist movements
• Western-backed dictatorships crushing leftist alternatives
• Cold War sponsorship of religious forces as bulwarks against socialism
• Economic immiseration that makes religious identity a vehicle of resistance

Iran did not become a theocracy because Islam “naturally” leads there; it became one after a U.S.-backed coup destroyed a secular democratic government and decades of repression wiped out left alternatives. History matters. Power relations matter. Theology alone explains nothing.

Fourth, “Is this compatible with Western culture?”
This question is meaningless unless you define “Western culture.” The West itself:
• Had state churches for centuries
• Used biblical law to regulate sex, dress, and family
• Burned heretics
• Criminalized blasphemy
• Still invokes God in state rituals

If by “Western culture” you mean liberal capitalism, then the real question is not cultural compatibility but political utility. Western powers have shown themselves perfectly willing to ally with religious states - Islamic or otherwise - whenever it serves imperial interests.

Western culture? How about little things we take for granted, like women being able to walk around free and not having to endure beatings by her husband that Islam condones, or gays being able to walk hand in hand in public without being beaten, etc.?Those are just a couple of examples.

Then there’s all the hate against non-Muslims that the text promotes throughout. How do you defend all the hateful verses? How do they fit in with western culture? How do you peacefully live and practice your “religion” among those the text instructs you to hate, war with, and enslave? And how do those people live peacefully with you, knowing what the ideology instructs?

In Britain, wife-beating was legal until 1891.
In the United States, sodomy laws jailed gay people into the 1970s.
In France, women needed a husband’s permission to work until 1965.
Europe burned tens of thousands of women as witches, enslaved Africa and the Americas, and justified it all with Christian scripture.

Those practices didn’t end because the Bible softened. They ended because workers, women, and dissidents forced secular law on ruling elites.

Now you blame Islam for abuses that appear where states are poor, authoritarian, and wrecked by war, wars imposed largely by Western powers. The West overthrew secular governments in Iran, Egypt, Afghanistan, and elsewhere, armed religious extremists, then points to the outcome and says, “See? Their culture.”

Scriptures don’t run societies. Power does.
And Western power has produced more dead civilians, more dictators, and more social collapse than any holy book ever did

We’re living in 2025, not in the past. Doesn’t matter, though. Your views are so anti-west that it’s not worth discussing. Maybe consider moving someplace you’d don’t hate? Just a thought.

War and coupes directly affect today’s political landscape. Thinking otherwise would be stupid. If criticizing the US means you have to exile the critic, that just proves you have a weak argument.

The poll is about a the ideology of Islam. You want to make it into a critisism of the west—which you seem to hate. More power to ya. I just feel you might prefer living somewhere else, considering your feelings about the west.

The poll mashes together separate claims that don’t logically connect, then treats the confusion as a conclusion.

No, you just don’t want to address what the text promotes.

Irish. I thought that you were an atheist who hated fundamentalism. Why are you defending islam? You don’t defend christianity.

Yes actually, there is a very distinct separation of church and state within the Bible—Jesus’ Caesar verse. However, that’s irrelevant because this poll has nothing to do with Christianity. It’s about Islam, which is far more political in nature and not at all comparable to Christianity in the way westerners think.

Outlaw … what does the Koran teach you must do with the non-believers?

Outlaw, this poll is not about Muslims. It’s about the ideology of Islam.

That said, you make a good point, and I think you inadvertently highlighted the crux of the matter. If you claim you’re a Muslim, shouldn’t I assume you adhere to the ideology? If yes, then I have to assume that, to you, I’m your enemy—because Islam clearly lays out the battle lines between Muslims and everyone else.

So what do we do with that? I’m not the type to blanket prejudice an entire group, and I know there are tons of Muslims who want to escape this ideology. But how do we deal with an ideology that promotes hate and conquering the way this one does?

Let us celebrate that modern advance.

Turkey is no beacon of freedom!

It used to be. But they have turned towards the dark side.

Gigantic misconception.

Those guys love Christian sharia

Goo … it’s always a hoot to see your hysteria. Remember, you leftists all demanded that we join the Church of Climate Alarm and demanded that we pay trillions to your silly idols!

I haven’t seen anyone stoned or beheaded for not following Christianity. What did I miss?

That’s because “civilization” uses hanging, electrocution or lethal injection.

Is that a Christian dogma?

“Those guys love Christian sharia”

No such thing exists to love.

Z … please identify the latest person electrocuted or hanged for not strictly following the precepts of Christianity.

I’ll wait!

Are we counting “thou shalt not do murder?”

His is a factual question, not biased

Yeah, right.

If the shoe fits….

sID … once again simple truths expose your hysteria. Yawn.

Not all muslims are extremist islamic terrorists. But all Islamic terrorists are Muslims.

Well, duh. It’s in the name.

All you’ve done is prove my point with something you *thought* sounded profound.

sID … pathetic, but that appears to be the best you’ve got.

I thought that you were an atheist who didn’t like fundamentalist religions, like seventh day adventists and such.

I’m no atheist. And yes, extremism - evangelicals and fundamentalists - in any religion, are dangerous to society.

Ok. So why are you defending the most extreme fundamentalists of all? The only ones that I know of that vow to kill anyone who doesn’t convert.

🎯
More than a few on this app.

Yeah, I was told that if I voted for Trump I would be issued a handmaid. It’s been almost a year and still not handmaid. I was duped.

This poll is about Islam not Israel.

Israel is a true functioning Democracy surrounded by mostly theocratic Muslim countries.

Israel certainly blends religious identity and state power in ways that challenge liberal secularism. But that doesn’t make it a theocracy in the same sense as states governed by divine law.

What’s interesting is how comfortable many people are with religious influence when it comes from familiar traditions, while calling it incompatible or dangerous when it doesn’t. That selective standard is worth examining.

The “familiar” traditions do not call for ongoing war and hatred. Islamic text does. The continued attacks across the world, all attributed to the same ideology, aren’t coincidence. They’re driven by the text. The ideology is the source.

People need to educate themselves on this ideology. It is unlike any other. Even calling it a religion is a stretch once you truly understand it. It’s more political than religious, certainly in percentage of text dedicated to each topic.

Minor point, but exactly none of the countries immediately surrounding Israel is a theocracy.

True. They’re not official theocracies in that they’re not run by clerics. But Islam is the dominant influence in everything from Sharia courts to gender segregation to dress requirements to alcohol bans, etc.

Not accurate, not if you understand what Islam is.

I’ll share the same video with you that I did with the others below. It’s important for Americans to start educating themselves on this ideology. It is not comparable to Christianity in the way westerners mistakenly think. It is a very different animal.

youtu.be/Y64jGdPHDmM?si=D_i15e2jc9MdfxkT

I’m comfortable with disagreement here, but I want to be clear about the basis for mine.

I’ve read widely on Islamic history, political Islam, and the Middle East, and while I don’t claim expertise, my view isn’t coming from ignorance or caricature. It’s coming from comparative analysis.

My point isn’t that Islam and Christianity are the same, or that all Muslim societies function identically. It’s that religious systems—any of them—can and do become politically dominant when aligned with state power, and that compatibility with liberal democracy varies by interpretation, culture, and institutional design.

We tend to recognize that complexity when discussing Christianity’s role in Western governance, but flatten it when discussing Islam. That asymmetry is what I’m pushing back on.

I don’t see them as comparable at all. One tries to create a Sharia state anywhere it settles, provided it gains enough dominance. Islam, when practiced according to the text, does not allow for democracy. To my knowledge, every other major religion does.

Thank you for that view. I will try to absorb it. I work very hard at not being ‘tribal’, but I will admit, Islam is one of my last and biggest hurdle.

It seems that the best way to be fair is to clearly enforce the separation between church and state. That should be true regardless of the religion.

This is true. Sort of. Indonesia is secular on paper. Not so much in practice—though one might not realize that if they’d only visited the tourist areas.

Regardless, Pancasila is not an Islamic concept. It was formed by Indonesian nationalists, because they needed a way to unify everyone to fight off the Dutch. At the time, there were hardline Islamists who wanted a Sharia state, including getting thier special unbeliever tax and all that, but they had no choice but to yield. So there were extenuating circumstances. They also have islands, which maintain a good deal of cultural separation that I think makes coexistence easier.

Even despite all that, though, there was still an Islamic uprising (where they tried forcing Sharia again) and several other flare ups after Pancasila was established.

That said, Indonesia does show mostly peaceful coexistence is possible (jihadists attacks, etc. still occur).

Oops. It took me a while to type all that, and other comments came in in the meantime. That comment was to Ody.

Pam, Islam is a religion. Are you working on not being tribal in regard to a religion? Or did you intend to say Muslim?

For anyone interested in learning more about Islam, this is extremely educational, especially if you have little knowledge on the subject:

youtu.be/Y64jGdPHDmM?si=cMNClx8lGRM4qCJj

Whoever subjugates women and in some cases, forces them to wear face coverings and horrid clothes. My daughter is at Penn State U and says my attitude doesn’t fly for the majority of Muslims/Islamists. I’m trying hard to blunt my instinctive, its ‘them’ response. Progressive is slow. I’m not sure if I’m being bamboozled or not, so for now, I don’t go ranting, but my overall opinion of the ‘group’, yes, ‘them’, is not good.

I understand, Pam. I don’t know the population you’re around, but the stricter they adhere to Islam, the less you’re likely to like them. The ideology forbids Muslims to be friends with unbelievers, and continued hatred is encouraged (“animosity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone”). Lying to non-believers via a concept called taqiyya is often also used far more liberally than claimed (which means they can and do fake friendships with non-believers). And so on.

IMHO, this is an ideology Americans need to learn about. From what I’ve seen, westerners have too many misconceptions and ignorance surrounding it and, in this case, that ignorance could be dangerous for all of us.

To that end, I suggest everyone research the ideology. The video I posted above is a great start.

Pam, I just remembered some info you might find interesting (bc you ref. oppression).

The percentage of Muslim women who don’t want to be Muslim is very high, 2x higher than men. Best I can figure with the limited data available, it’s roughly 70- to 80% of Muslim women overall, with the percentages skewing highest in the most oppressive Islamic nations.

But get this: being trapped in this “religion” is common *even* in the U.S. According to Pew (2024), 75-80% of those who want out hide thier apostasy due to fear of shunning, violence, or other repercussions.

At the same time, 23-24% are leaving Islam when they reach adulthood (most, secretly), so Islam is not doing well at retention in America.

Too bad it retains any, though, because inevitably, some of them decide to take the text as literally as it commands them to.

I know, from a Christian who's a former Indonesian, of deadly Muslim attacks on Christians there. Anyone know if that’s still happening?